I’m confused. All over this site we’re told that homeopathy is not medicine and not science because there’s a large element of it that’s purely belief and, in an case, there’s no active ingredients to speak of. However, you’re saying that homeopaths can and do prescribe active ingredients.

If there some active homeopathic ingredients are harmful, if misapplied, are those effective if used properly? Are there homeopathic active ingredients that work and those that don’t work?

Is this Zicam stuff a treatment prescribed and developed by homeopaths (registered or otherwise) or is it something that’s been developed by others to sell as a homeopathic remedy? Has it made its way on to a government list because it seems like a homeopathic remedy? Do homeopaths regard Zicam as homeopathic?

Unintelligent Designer,

Homeopathy is defined as a system of ‘medicine’ where substances that would bring about symptoms in a healthy person are used – heavily diluted – to treat an unwell person who already has those symptoms. The fact that there is no active ingredient in the solutions that homeopaths would typically use (Hahnemann recommended 30C and beyond) is only a prevalent consequence of their methodology, and not a prerequisite.

The manufacturers of Zicam state that their products are a 2X homeopathic solution, “packaged and distributed in full accordance with the HPUS”.

For criticism, see Dr. Iris R. Bell in the AP article. She says that most homeopathic remedies are much safer than conventional pharmaceuticals. You and me know why, of course.

Thanks for that, WH. I see what you mean. However, I was wondering whether homeopaths regard Zicam as homeopathy. This is an important point.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQ2bZ11tGtoiKx6BO5K70Lx1ETmgD98SK27G0:
“Dr. Iris R. Bell, a psychiatrist and homeopathy researcher at the University of Arizona, Tucson, says the suspended Zicam products deliver the homeopathic ingredient right into the nose — not an accepted homeopathic method. She says the FDA should act against such products.”

She says the Zicam delivery method doesn’t accord with homeopathic practice.

The US National Center for Homeopathy says Zicam isn’t homeopathy:
http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/articles/view,341

Skeptico says Zicam doesn’t sound like a homeopathic preparation:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/if_it_has_any_i.html

We’re talking here about unscrupulous producer of over-the-counter pharmaceuticals that makes a bad product within state-registered legal definitions.

We’re not talking about an over-the-counter preparation registered as homeopathic, not a homeopathic preparation made and prescribed by homeopaths. There’s a difference between those two things. 30C is a world away from 2x.

I think you do a disservice to the facts by suggesting that the harm caused by a state-registered pharmaceutical that’s claimed to be homeopathic provides evidence that homeopathy is potentially dangerous.

“The fact that there is no active ingredient in the solutions that homeopaths would typically use (Hahnemann recommended 30C and beyond) is only a prevalent consequence of their methodology, and not a prerequisite.”

Here, you’re offering a similar argument to the one the Zicam manufacturers use in protecting their product as homeopathic. They’re following the regulations to the letter.

I think we need to know whether Zicam is made by homeopaths and whether a wide community of homeopaths recognise it and recommend it as valid in their system of treatment. If they don’t, your linkage of Zicam, which is shown to cause harm to people, to their practice is at least unfair and at worst disingenuous.

The line of argument from debunkers and sceptics over the years is that homeopathy doesn’t (in fact, can’t) work. Either it can or it can’t. You seem to be saying that it can work. But you’re offering this opinion based on a 2x product. What about 30C preparations? Do you agree there’s a difference between 2x and 30C homeopathic products?

So how many other 2x products are there? Are these harmful? How many 30C preparations are harmful?

Science is needed here, soon.

Lastly, I think we need to know who owns Matrixx Intiatives, the company that produces Zicam? Is it a small-scale operation run by deluded homeopathic enthusiasts? Or is it a subsidiary of a larger pharmaceutical company? If it’s not a subsidiary, where did it get the capital to succesfully launch an over-the-counter medication in such a cut-throat market?

By the way, I’m not a homeopath and don’t use homeopathic remedies.

Unintelligent Designer,

What I point out is that a 2X solution may very well have an active ingredient present. This was so in Zicam’s case, because a lot of people were harmed. At no point am I saying that homeopathy works: a cold remedy that destroys one’s sense of smell is certainly not my idea of successful treatment.

My association of Zicam with homeopathy is certainly not unfair. What Royal Copeland sowed has sadly been reaped, and I have already stated that Matrixx Initiatives is “trading objectionably on an already objectionable concept”.

“The line of argument from debunkers and sceptics over the years is that homeopathy doesn’t (in fact, can’t) work. Either it can or it can’t. You seem to be saying that it can work. But you’re offering this opinion based on a 2x product. What about 30C preparations? Do you agree there’s a difference between 2x and 30C homeopathic products?”

UD I think you’re bringing up an unrelated issue. The above article isn’t about whether or not homeopathic remedies work, but the consequences of homeopathic remedies gaining automatic FDA approval. The FDA doesn’t just establish the efficacy of medical remedies, it also establishes their safety. Homeopathic remedies don’t have to go through the same long clinical trials to establish their safety before they hit the market. And in the case of this nasal spray, that means an unsafe product was let loose on the market.

??? ?????? ???????? ????? ??????????? ? ? ?????? ???????????
———————————————————
????????? [url=http://www.gaurastyle.kiev.ua]????????? ?????[/url], ???????????.
??????????? [url=http://www.starstudio.com.ua]????????? ?????[/url], ???????????.

“For criticism, see Dr. Iris R. Bell in the AP article. She says that most homeopathic remedies are much safer than conventional pharmaceuticals. You and me know why, of course.”

Most homeopathic remedies are water. They are “safe” only if you’re treating for dehydration. They treat nothing else.

Once you start getting into these lower succussions, the remedies contain an active ingredient and they should be controlled by the FDA.

O Really Tom!! Have u ever tried Homeopathic Medicines??? They are not diluted but POTENTISED, which means by the process of successions given, the kinetic energy of the molecules is raised to many folds. Here it differs from simple Dilution, in which only water is added but not potentized.

Homeopathic medicines do work and many clinical trials are on to feed the rationalistic minds. Under WHO only trials have been conducted and it had been recommended to use them. How can someone treat ailments ranging from coryza, cough, acne to asthma, pneumonia, kidney stones by Placebo Effect… This type of comments surely doesnot suit to intelligent people li you, Tom!!

And Homeopathy is surely a hit on fortunes of pharmaceutical Companies due to it’s cost-effectiveness that’s why giants are behind it…

Every year there is 20-25% economic growth and homeopathic Heathcare industry is going to be somewhere near 52,000 crore by 2017, just because of it’s Placebo Effect… FUNNY!!!

I recommend you a thing, please try this so called Placebo under a good reputed clinician and feel changes in you.

Good Luck!!

Priyanka, Good luck with that. You enjoy your homeopathic “cure” and I will enjoy modern Western medicine.

I will come to your cremation with flowers for your family. Rest in peace.

@Priyanka: “which means by the process of successions given, the kinetic energy of the molecules is raised to many folds.”

So the solution gets hotter? Well, I suppose it would really, if you go around banging it against things. I’m just not sure what possible health value that has, since it’s going to cool down pretty rapidly.

Hey, thanks for the remarkable content. Honestly, about five months back I started taking reading blogs and there may be just so much nonsense available. I appreciate which you put terrific subject material out that’s clear and well-written. Wonderful luck and thank you for the terrific document!!!

I’m confused. All over this site we’re told that homeopathy is not medicine and not science because there’s a large element of it that’s purely belief and, in an case, there’s no active ingredients to speak of. However, you’re saying that homeopaths can and do prescribe active ingredients.

If there some active homeopathic ingredients are harmful, if misapplied, are those effective if used properly? Are there homeopathic active ingredients that work and those that don’t work?

Is this Zicam stuff a treatment prescribed and developed by homeopaths (registered or otherwise) or is it something that’s been developed by others to sell as a homeopathic remedy? Has it made its way on to a government list because it seems like a homeopathic remedy? Do homeopaths regard Zicam as homeopathic?

Unintelligent Designer,

Homeopathy is defined as a system of ‘medicine’ where substances that would bring about symptoms in a healthy person are used – heavily diluted – to treat an unwell person who already has those symptoms. The fact that there is no active ingredient in the solutions that homeopaths would typically use (Hahnemann recommended 30C and beyond) is only a prevalent consequence of their methodology, and not a prerequisite.

The manufacturers of Zicam state that their products are a 2X homeopathic solution, “packaged and distributed in full accordance with the HPUS”.

For criticism, see Dr. Iris R. Bell in the AP article. She says that most homeopathic remedies are much safer than conventional pharmaceuticals. You and me know why, of course.

Thanks for that, WH. I see what you mean. However, I was wondering whether homeopaths regard Zicam as homeopathy. This is an important point.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQ2bZ11tGtoiKx6BO5K70Lx1ETmgD98SK27G0:
“Dr. Iris R. Bell, a psychiatrist and homeopathy researcher at the University of Arizona, Tucson, says the suspended Zicam products deliver the homeopathic ingredient right into the nose — not an accepted homeopathic method. She says the FDA should act against such products.”

She says the Zicam delivery method doesn’t accord with homeopathic practice.

The US National Center for Homeopathy says Zicam isn’t homeopathy:
http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/articles/view,341

Skeptico says Zicam doesn’t sound like a homeopathic preparation:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/if_it_has_any_i.html

We’re talking here about unscrupulous producer of over-the-counter pharmaceuticals that makes a bad product within state-registered legal definitions.

We’re not talking about an over-the-counter preparation registered as homeopathic, not a homeopathic preparation made and prescribed by homeopaths. There’s a difference between those two things. 30C is a world away from 2x.

I think you do a disservice to the facts by suggesting that the harm caused by a state-registered pharmaceutical that’s claimed to be homeopathic provides evidence that homeopathy is potentially dangerous.

“The fact that there is no active ingredient in the solutions that homeopaths would typically use (Hahnemann recommended 30C and beyond) is only a prevalent consequence of their methodology, and not a prerequisite.”

Here, you’re offering a similar argument to the one the Zicam manufacturers use in protecting their product as homeopathic. They’re following the regulations to the letter.

I think we need to know whether Zicam is made by homeopaths and whether a wide community of homeopaths recognise it and recommend it as valid in their system of treatment. If they don’t, your linkage of Zicam, which is shown to cause harm to people, to their practice is at least unfair and at worst disingenuous.

The line of argument from debunkers and sceptics over the years is that homeopathy doesn’t (in fact, can’t) work. Either it can or it can’t. You seem to be saying that it can work. But you’re offering this opinion based on a 2x product. What about 30C preparations? Do you agree there’s a difference between 2x and 30C homeopathic products?

So how many other 2x products are there? Are these harmful? How many 30C preparations are harmful?

Science is needed here, soon.

Lastly, I think we need to know who owns Matrixx Intiatives, the company that produces Zicam? Is it a small-scale operation run by deluded homeopathic enthusiasts? Or is it a subsidiary of a larger pharmaceutical company? If it’s not a subsidiary, where did it get the capital to succesfully launch an over-the-counter medication in such a cut-throat market?

By the way, I’m not a homeopath and don’t use homeopathic remedies.

Unintelligent Designer,

What I point out is that a 2X solution may very well have an active ingredient present. This was so in Zicam’s case, because a lot of people were harmed. At no point am I saying that homeopathy works: a cold remedy that destroys one’s sense of smell is certainly not my idea of successful treatment.

My association of Zicam with homeopathy is certainly not unfair. What Royal Copeland sowed has sadly been reaped, and I have already stated that Matrixx Initiatives is “trading objectionably on an already objectionable concept”.

“The line of argument from debunkers and sceptics over the years is that homeopathy doesn’t (in fact, can’t) work. Either it can or it can’t. You seem to be saying that it can work. But you’re offering this opinion based on a 2x product. What about 30C preparations? Do you agree there’s a difference between 2x and 30C homeopathic products?”

UD I think you’re bringing up an unrelated issue. The above article isn’t about whether or not homeopathic remedies work, but the consequences of homeopathic remedies gaining automatic FDA approval. The FDA doesn’t just establish the efficacy of medical remedies, it also establishes their safety. Homeopathic remedies don’t have to go through the same long clinical trials to establish their safety before they hit the market. And in the case of this nasal spray, that means an unsafe product was let loose on the market.

??? ?????? ???????? ????? ??????????? ? ? ?????? ???????????
———————————————————
????????? [url=http://www.gaurastyle.kiev.ua]????????? ?????[/url], ???????????.
??????????? [url=http://www.starstudio.com.ua]????????? ?????[/url], ???????????.

“For criticism, see Dr. Iris R. Bell in the AP article. She says that most homeopathic remedies are much safer than conventional pharmaceuticals. You and me know why, of course.”

Most homeopathic remedies are water. They are “safe” only if you’re treating for dehydration. They treat nothing else.

Once you start getting into these lower succussions, the remedies contain an active ingredient and they should be controlled by the FDA.

O Really Tom!! Have u ever tried Homeopathic Medicines??? They are not diluted but POTENTISED, which means by the process of successions given, the kinetic energy of the molecules is raised to many folds. Here it differs from simple Dilution, in which only water is added but not potentized.

Homeopathic medicines do work and many clinical trials are on to feed the rationalistic minds. Under WHO only trials have been conducted and it had been recommended to use them. How can someone treat ailments ranging from coryza, cough, acne to asthma, pneumonia, kidney stones by Placebo Effect… This type of comments surely doesnot suit to intelligent people li you, Tom!!

And Homeopathy is surely a hit on fortunes of pharmaceutical Companies due to it’s cost-effectiveness that’s why giants are behind it…

Every year there is 20-25% economic growth and homeopathic Heathcare industry is going to be somewhere near 52,000 crore by 2017, just because of it’s Placebo Effect… FUNNY!!!

I recommend you a thing, please try this so called Placebo under a good reputed clinician and feel changes in you.

Good Luck!!

Priyanka, Good luck with that. You enjoy your homeopathic “cure” and I will enjoy modern Western medicine.

I will come to your cremation with flowers for your family. Rest in peace.

@Priyanka: “which means by the process of successions given, the kinetic energy of the molecules is raised to many folds.”

So the solution gets hotter? Well, I suppose it would really, if you go around banging it against things. I’m just not sure what possible health value that has, since it’s going to cool down pretty rapidly.

Hey, thanks for the remarkable content. Honestly, about five months back I started taking reading blogs and there may be just so much nonsense available. I appreciate which you put terrific subject material out that’s clear and well-written. Wonderful luck and thank you for the terrific document!!!

The World Health Organisation has also warned against using homeopathy use:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211925.stm

“People with conditions such as HIV, TB and malaria should not rely on homeopathic treatments, the World Health Organization has warned.

It was responding to calls from young researchers who fear the promotion of homeopathy in the developing world could put people’s lives at risk.

The group Voice of Young Science Network has written to health ministers to set out the WHO view.

WHO TB experts said homeopathy had “no place” in treatment of the disease.

In a letter to the WHO in June, the medics from the UK and Africa said: “We are calling on the WHO to condemn the promotion of homeopathy for treating TB, infant diarrhoea, influenza, malaria and HIV.

“Homeopathy does not protect people from, or treat, these diseases.

“Those of us working with the most rural and impoverished people of the world already struggle to deliver the medical help that is needed.

“When homeopathy stands in place of effective treatment, lives are lost.”

Dr Robert Hagan is a researcher in biomolecular science at the University of St Andrews and a member of Voice of Young Science Network, which is part of the charity Sense About Science campaigning for “evidence-based” care.

He said: “We need governments around the world to recognise the dangers of promoting homeopathy for life-threatening illnesses.

“We hope that by raising awareness of the WHO’s position on homeopathy we will be supporting those people who are taking a stand against these potentially disastrous practices.”

‘No evidence’

Dr Mario Raviglione, director of the Stop TB department at the WHO, said: “Our evidence-based WHO TB treatment/management guidelines, as well as the International Standards of Tuberculosis Care do not recommend use of homeopathy.”

The doctors had also complained that homeopathy was being promoted as a treatment for diarrhoea in children.

But a spokesman for the WHO department of child and adolescent health and development said: “We have found no evidence to date that homeopathy would bring any benefit.

“Homeopathy does not focus on the treatment and prevention of dehydration – in total contradiction with the scientific basis and our recommendations for the management of diarrhoea.”

Dr Nick Beeching, a specialist in infectious diseases at the Royal Liverpool University Hospital, said: “Infections such as malaria, HIV and tuberculosis all have a high mortality rate but can usually be controlled or cured by a variety of proven treatments, for which there is ample experience and scientific trial data.

“There is no objective evidence that homeopathy has any effect on these infections, and I think it is irresponsible for a healthcare worker to promote the use of homeopathy in place of proven treatment for any life-threatening illness.” “

The World Health Organisation has also warned against using homeopathy use:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211925.stm

“People with conditions such as HIV, TB and malaria should not rely on homeopathic treatments, the World Health Organization has warned.

It was responding to calls from young researchers who fear the promotion of homeopathy in the developing world could put people’s lives at risk.

The group Voice of Young Science Network has written to health ministers to set out the WHO view.

WHO TB experts said homeopathy had “no place” in treatment of the disease.

In a letter to the WHO in June, the medics from the UK and Africa said: “We are calling on the WHO to condemn the promotion of homeopathy for treating TB, infant diarrhoea, influenza, malaria and HIV.

“Homeopathy does not protect people from, or treat, these diseases.

“Those of us working with the most rural and impoverished people of the world already struggle to deliver the medical help that is needed.

“When homeopathy stands in place of effective treatment, lives are lost.”

Dr Robert Hagan is a researcher in biomolecular science at the University of St Andrews and a member of Voice of Young Science Network, which is part of the charity Sense About Science campaigning for “evidence-based” care.

He said: “We need governments around the world to recognise the dangers of promoting homeopathy for life-threatening illnesses.

“We hope that by raising awareness of the WHO’s position on homeopathy we will be supporting those people who are taking a stand against these potentially disastrous practices.”

‘No evidence’

Dr Mario Raviglione, director of the Stop TB department at the WHO, said: “Our evidence-based WHO TB treatment/management guidelines, as well as the International Standards of Tuberculosis Care do not recommend use of homeopathy.”

The doctors had also complained that homeopathy was being promoted as a treatment for diarrhoea in children.

But a spokesman for the WHO department of child and adolescent health and development said: “We have found no evidence to date that homeopathy would bring any benefit.

“Homeopathy does not focus on the treatment and prevention of dehydration – in total contradiction with the scientific basis and our recommendations for the management of diarrhoea.”

Dr Nick Beeching, a specialist in infectious diseases at the Royal Liverpool University Hospital, said: “Infections such as malaria, HIV and tuberculosis all have a high mortality rate but can usually be controlled or cured by a variety of proven treatments, for which there is ample experience and scientific trial data.

“There is no objective evidence that homeopathy has any effect on these infections, and I think it is irresponsible for a healthcare worker to promote the use of homeopathy in place of proven treatment for any life-threatening illness.” “

I thought the guidance excluded chronic back pain? A minor detail, I know…

The BBC article mentions a choice of 3 complementary therapies. If it was down to excercise or acupuncture, I wonder what most people will go for?
Surely the implication that it is a placebo would make the NHS think twice? Unless they are happily promoting bogus treatments these days (ahem)

Re the Beacon. You are right, the guidance doesn’t mention ‘chronic’ back pain (so I’ve amended the above article), but it does talk about ‘persistent back pain’.

I wonder how many of the sceptics have actually tried acupuncture from a reputable practitioner.

Having tried acupuncture as a last resort for back pain, for which the NHS could only advise radical surgery, I found it to be both effective and lasting in its effects.

If that were down to a placebo effect, then I’d imagine that the anti-inflammatories and painkillers previously prescribed by my doctor – and which I fully expected to resolve the problem – would have worked just as well. They didn’t.

As for proven efficacy – if those of us who have tried acupuncture and found it to work are to be written off as deluded beneficiaries of a placebo effect, then trty the copious body of research available on the World Health Organisation website.

It works, and has been proven to work, when administered by well-trained professionals, as licensed by the British Acupuncture Council.

Did you know that 95% of percentages used in 95% of “studies, reports, [email protected] or whatever this Will Heaven has claimed to have conducted, are figures pulled out of the air.
What are you an expert on Mr Heaven? apart from radical spin journalism see following quote (reported by Counterknowledge.com and the BMJ”Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.” In other words, scientists do not know whether acupuncture works like a placebo, or if it has a real biological effect. I ask why are you spinning acupuncture in this way. Do you perhaps have any connections to the Drug industry which is squirming due to the fact that Drug free remedies are increasing in popularity? If this is your main job then well done. i’d love to sit at a pc all typing rubbish and making it sound official with the usual newspaper dribble, The Catchy headline, All the bullet points kept negative to hit home the message, the odd figure to make it sound official and a sceptical negative anecdotial conclusion. Its a rubbish article but whats more worrying is that people may read it as fact and tell others it as fact. i’ll be keeing my eye out for your articles.

As you all know acupuncture has been around of thousands of years, if there were nothing to it don’t you think it would have gone away by now? You cannot deny the undeniable benefits of natural forms of healthcare.

That acupuncture is effective in blocking out pain is beyond dispute. People have surgery with acupuncture alone. The real issue is not whether acupuncture is effective in blocking pain but whether the relief is persistent.

Acupuncture does work i should know i have ankylosing spondylitis and have ONLY become pain free because of Acupuncture, i now only need a few repeat treatments when the pain comes back and the pain that does come back is minimal compared to the pain i used to get.
I would have loved Acupuncture to be on the NHS instead of paying out a small fortune, Acupuncture does help allot of ailments as well as back pain.
You Mr Heaven have no idea i presume of what it is like to have your whole body in pain, so much so you can`t get out of bed by yourself because your spine muscles have weakened and be in constant pain everyday and then oneday i visited an acupuncturist after my mam got cured of sciatica through Acupuncture and after allot of treatment i am ALLOT better and more often than not either pain free or nearly pain free, all because of Acupuncture.

Paul, I think the last one locked the doors and shut off the lights a couple of months ago.
All thats left here is tumbleweed and and an exchange of invective over the holocaust and zionism.
I assume the site staff have all moved on.

Acupuncture works, and it has done so for hundred of years. It also saved me from spending the rest of my life in a wheelchair. Could have gone for a expensive and ridiculously dangerous operation I guess….

Acupuncture has been known in China for ages, my mom introduced me to acupunture and i am since been amazed how it can reduce my migraine.

What a joke. Acupuncture works, it has for thousands of years. It saved me when I had major back issues, when NHS simply send me home with painkillers usually given to heroin addicts. And that was it.
To dare stating that its beneficial effects are unclear or that this a placebo is state of the art smug ignorance.
LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I regard something truly interesting about your weblog so I bookmarked .

I know this is actually boring and you are skipping to the next comment, but I simply wanted to throw a big thanks! We really came across this on yahoo, and im happy I did. I’ll definitely be coming back…

Reading some of the comments about this blog, Id need to say I agree with the majority. Only a and an very interesting post to read on this nice website. Almost never write some feedback only now i couldnt i possibly could not resist

I thought the guidance excluded chronic back pain? A minor detail, I know…

The BBC article mentions a choice of 3 complementary therapies. If it was down to excercise or acupuncture, I wonder what most people will go for?
Surely the implication that it is a placebo would make the NHS think twice? Unless they are happily promoting bogus treatments these days (ahem)

Re the Beacon. You are right, the guidance doesn’t mention ‘chronic’ back pain (so I’ve amended the above article), but it does talk about ‘persistent back pain’.

I wonder how many of the sceptics have actually tried acupuncture from a reputable practitioner.

Having tried acupuncture as a last resort for back pain, for which the NHS could only advise radical surgery, I found it to be both effective and lasting in its effects.

If that were down to a placebo effect, then I’d imagine that the anti-inflammatories and painkillers previously prescribed by my doctor – and which I fully expected to resolve the problem – would have worked just as well. They didn’t.

As for proven efficacy – if those of us who have tried acupuncture and found it to work are to be written off as deluded beneficiaries of a placebo effect, then trty the copious body of research available on the World Health Organisation website.

It works, and has been proven to work, when administered by well-trained professionals, as licensed by the British Acupuncture Council.

Did you know that 95% of percentages used in 95% of “studies, reports, [email protected] or whatever this Will Heaven has claimed to have conducted, are figures pulled out of the air.
What are you an expert on Mr Heaven? apart from radical spin journalism see following quote (reported by Counterknowledge.com and the BMJ”Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.” In other words, scientists do not know whether acupuncture works like a placebo, or if it has a real biological effect. I ask why are you spinning acupuncture in this way. Do you perhaps have any connections to the Drug industry which is squirming due to the fact that Drug free remedies are increasing in popularity? If this is your main job then well done. i’d love to sit at a pc all typing rubbish and making it sound official with the usual newspaper dribble, The Catchy headline, All the bullet points kept negative to hit home the message, the odd figure to make it sound official and a sceptical negative anecdotial conclusion. Its a rubbish article but whats more worrying is that people may read it as fact and tell others it as fact. i’ll be keeing my eye out for your articles.

As you all know acupuncture has been around of thousands of years, if there were nothing to it don’t you think it would have gone away by now? You cannot deny the undeniable benefits of natural forms of healthcare.

That acupuncture is effective in blocking out pain is beyond dispute. People have surgery with acupuncture alone. The real issue is not whether acupuncture is effective in blocking pain but whether the relief is persistent.

Acupuncture does work i should know i have ankylosing spondylitis and have ONLY become pain free because of Acupuncture, i now only need a few repeat treatments when the pain comes back and the pain that does come back is minimal compared to the pain i used to get.
I would have loved Acupuncture to be on the NHS instead of paying out a small fortune, Acupuncture does help allot of ailments as well as back pain.
You Mr Heaven have no idea i presume of what it is like to have your whole body in pain, so much so you can`t get out of bed by yourself because your spine muscles have weakened and be in constant pain everyday and then oneday i visited an acupuncturist after my mam got cured of sciatica through Acupuncture and after allot of treatment i am ALLOT better and more often than not either pain free or nearly pain free, all because of Acupuncture.

Paul, I think the last one locked the doors and shut off the lights a couple of months ago.
All thats left here is tumbleweed and and an exchange of invective over the holocaust and zionism.
I assume the site staff have all moved on.

Acupuncture works, and it has done so for hundred of years. It also saved me from spending the rest of my life in a wheelchair. Could have gone for a expensive and ridiculously dangerous operation I guess….

Acupuncture has been known in China for ages, my mom introduced me to acupunture and i am since been amazed how it can reduce my migraine.

What a joke. Acupuncture works, it has for thousands of years. It saved me when I had major back issues, when NHS simply send me home with painkillers usually given to heroin addicts. And that was it.
To dare stating that its beneficial effects are unclear or that this a placebo is state of the art smug ignorance.
LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I regard something truly interesting about your weblog so I bookmarked .

I know this is actually boring and you are skipping to the next comment, but I simply wanted to throw a big thanks! We really came across this on yahoo, and im happy I did. I’ll definitely be coming back…

Reading some of the comments about this blog, Id need to say I agree with the majority. Only a and an very interesting post to read on this nice website. Almost never write some feedback only now i couldnt i possibly could not resist

Switzerland?!?!

Not the home of 25 Nobel prizes, one of which was won by a young up-and-comer known as Albert Einstein?!?

…or the place with the world’s largest laboratory and world-reknowned medical research facilities?!?

PLEASE, not from the guys who invented the army knife…with a bottle opener, scissors AND a toothpick!?!

Tell me they haven’t been conned by the homeopathetic “magic water” fairies

*sigh*

I’ve often suspected that most people go for CAM because it just seems all nice and holistic and alternative, rather than because they know anything about the specific treatments in question.

Why else would people so easily mix and match CAMs? I mean if you believe in homeopathy, then herbal medicines, traditional Chinese medicines, whatever, are just as bad as pharmaceutical drugs. They’re all “allopathic” and not diluted.

Interesting site, but much advertisments on him. Shall read as subscription, rss.

I have to wonder if people in the survey perhaps mixed up homeopathy with herbal remedies. I’d love to read the actual article but it appears you need to be a registered member or somesuch.

Thanks for discussing my paper. I’m afraid you need a subscription to read the full article, but I can assure you that the responders knew it was homeopathy that we were asking about, here are some of the questions..

There is good scientific evidence that homeopathy works
Agree strongly Agree slightly No firm opinion Disagree slightly Disagree strongly

I know what homeopathy is
Agree strongly Agree slightly No firm opinion Disagree slightly Disagree strongly

How concentrated are homeopathic products?
Very concentrated Moderately concentrated Moderately dilute Very dilute Nothing there

Cheers

Shaun

Thanks for replying Shaun. But may I ask, how can you assure me that respondents knew homeopathy wasn’t the same thing as herbal remedies?

Oh I see…I don’t think that I can prove that, although the name of the survey and questions all referred to homeopathy, I guess that some may have confused them; I don’t think so, but can’t prove this. I’ll send you a pdf if you give me your email address. Cheers

“But may I ask, how can you assure me that respondents knew homeopathy wasn’t the same thing as herbal remedies?”

Well, surely that is the point: if they think homoeopathy is the same thing as herbal remedies, then they don’t know what homoeopathy is.

Quite, Mojo.

of course even the Cochrane Collaboration have been known to confuse the two!

There’s still an important difference between people not realising that homeopathic remedies contain no active ingredient, and people not realising that homeopathy isn’t the same thing as herbalism. For example if people were confusing the two, and you explained that they were different, they may then admit “in that case I’ve never used homeopathy” … in which case the claim that people who *use* homeopathy don’t know what it is, is invalidated.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re very interesting results, but if you do a similar study in the future you may want to check this distinction.

Surely this is further proof that homeopathy works by the placebo effect? It’s ‘natural’, it’s ‘traditional’, its got the royal seal of approval etc.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the “Placebo Effect”. If only everything worked properly because of expectations.

Dr Shaun does not know any thing about this science. He doesnt understand the depth and do not have any knowledge of this wonderful science. If is driving a car blindfolded. Sir please study this science first and then comment.

Switzerland?!?!

Not the home of 25 Nobel prizes, one of which was won by a young up-and-comer known as Albert Einstein?!?

…or the place with the world’s largest laboratory and world-reknowned medical research facilities?!?

PLEASE, not from the guys who invented the army knife…with a bottle opener, scissors AND a toothpick!?!

Tell me they haven’t been conned by the homeopathetic “magic water” fairies

*sigh*

I’ve often suspected that most people go for CAM because it just seems all nice and holistic and alternative, rather than because they know anything about the specific treatments in question.

Why else would people so easily mix and match CAMs? I mean if you believe in homeopathy, then herbal medicines, traditional Chinese medicines, whatever, are just as bad as pharmaceutical drugs. They’re all “allopathic” and not diluted.

Interesting site, but much advertisments on him. Shall read as subscription, rss.

I have to wonder if people in the survey perhaps mixed up homeopathy with herbal remedies. I’d love to read the actual article but it appears you need to be a registered member or somesuch.

Thanks for discussing my paper. I’m afraid you need a subscription to read the full article, but I can assure you that the responders knew it was homeopathy that we were asking about, here are some of the questions..

There is good scientific evidence that homeopathy works
Agree strongly Agree slightly No firm opinion Disagree slightly Disagree strongly

I know what homeopathy is
Agree strongly Agree slightly No firm opinion Disagree slightly Disagree strongly

How concentrated are homeopathic products?
Very concentrated Moderately concentrated Moderately dilute Very dilute Nothing there

Cheers

Shaun

Thanks for replying Shaun. But may I ask, how can you assure me that respondents knew homeopathy wasn’t the same thing as herbal remedies?

Oh I see…I don’t think that I can prove that, although the name of the survey and questions all referred to homeopathy, I guess that some may have confused them; I don’t think so, but can’t prove this. I’ll send you a pdf if you give me your email address. Cheers

“But may I ask, how can you assure me that respondents knew homeopathy wasn’t the same thing as herbal remedies?”

Well, surely that is the point: if they think homoeopathy is the same thing as herbal remedies, then they don’t know what homoeopathy is.

Quite, Mojo.

of course even the Cochrane Collaboration have been known to confuse the two!

There’s still an important difference between people not realising that homeopathic remedies contain no active ingredient, and people not realising that homeopathy isn’t the same thing as herbalism. For example if people were confusing the two, and you explained that they were different, they may then admit “in that case I’ve never used homeopathy” … in which case the claim that people who *use* homeopathy don’t know what it is, is invalidated.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re very interesting results, but if you do a similar study in the future you may want to check this distinction.

Surely this is further proof that homeopathy works by the placebo effect? It’s ‘natural’, it’s ‘traditional’, its got the royal seal of approval etc.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the “Placebo Effect”. If only everything worked properly because of expectations.

Dr Shaun does not know any thing about this science. He doesnt understand the depth and do not have any knowledge of this wonderful science. If is driving a car blindfolded. Sir please study this science first and then comment.

I’d just shoot them.

So go ahead and shoot them. As for me, I dislike this involvement with other peoples’ business. A damn good case could be made for pretty much everyone fucking up their kids in a million and one ways – I say that these are their kids whom they presumably care about and it’s no stranger’s business. Oh, but you’re a do-gooder are ya? You just want to save the life of a suffering and dieing kid? Sure you are. That’s probably why you’re murdering children by the dozens right now as you wear unnecessary clothes, eat unnecessary foods and own an unnecessary computer, etc. – all on money that could save the lives of suffering and dieing children.

Stop playing cowboy on the web Davey. Spend a few days thinking, come up with a philosophy that makes some sense to you and then be willing to die and kill for it, until then stop farting your half-assed homicidal tendencies around the cybersphere. Thank you.

This story demonstrates to us that many people are wholly incompetent and (in some probably useless manner) cautions us against being similarly ignorant regarding matters of high importance to us. Only morons and fascists though see anything individually prescriptive about it.

“Only morons and fascists though see anything individually prescriptive about it.”

I must be a moron then because I see something quite prescriptive about this story. Parents who refuse real medical treatment in favour of quack medicine, and get their children killed as a result, will be prosecuted and hopefully spend a long time in jail.

In the meantime in the USA a mother has been charged guilty of second-degree murder for letting her daughter die of diabetes because she believed prayer would heal her. All the girl needed was insulin and fluids. But the mother didn’t call 911 until after her child was dead. For this she will face up to 25 years in prison.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/wis-mother-guilty-of-diabetic-daughters-death.html

Homeopathy is about as effective as faith healing.

Wow! “mnuez” is not only a ignorant blowhard, but a coward too!
Why do you hide behind a pseudonym?
(That’s a ‘false name’, for the educationally sub-normal).

I’ll wager that I do not get a coherent response…

Stop playing cowboy on the web coward. Spend a few days thinking.

“I say that these are their kids whom they presumably care about and it’s no stranger’s business.”

Nice sentiment “mnuez”…just stick you head in the sand and leave people to damage their kids…its not your problem is it? What a wonderful attitude. Did you live next door to Josef Fritzl?

the next baby p.

That’s way long enough to have waited for a reply from the motley bullshit-factory calling themselves “mnuez”.
I’m guessing that this terminal wally is in fact a practicing homeopath.
He displays both the requisite absence of morality and degraded intellect to be their prime specimen.

That’s way long enough to have waited for a reply from the motley bullshit-factory calling themselves “mnuez”.
I’m guessing that this terminal wally is in fact a practicing homeopath.
He displays both the requisite absence of morality and degraded intellect to be their prime specimen.

Tragic story – but how is it different to the countless examples one could cite of individuals praying to a God(s) for a miraculous cure, instead of treating their children/themselves with conventional medicine? Homeopathy would seem to be a ‘faith’ cure that simply doesn’t stand up to science, much in the same way all faith based belief systems don’t.

Mr K

I just happened to land in this blog. People generally do not have understanding about any system. Do we eat tablets instead of food?
What is food any way? It has some Botanical Name ? We eat milder herbs a lot to fill our stomach to get the satiated feeling. What is a spinach ? What are the herbs we use to process our food for taste or nutrition ? Homeopathy medicines mostly are taken from plants and according to their strength they are used in small doses and they sure heal the body with proper nutrition to the affected part. Most of the damages are due to malnutrition. The nature has its own laboratory to make different chemicals and keep the goodness of them. The laboratory inside human body wonderfully absorbs such healthy chemicals without inhibition or resistance, only when the dose is proper. But the conventional medicines are strong chemicals which always leave a damage in some sort in some part which is technically called side effects or contra effects. Liver and kidney struggles to deal with such waste disposal. Mostly these medicines counter the symptoms more than dealing with the actual root of the problem. The curing formula of conventional medicine is Disease _ Medicine, but with alternative medicines Disease _ Body _ Medicine. Only if the Human Body allows the cure will take place and also the manifestation of disease also play a role. If the disease : Body management ratio is 40:60 any disease can be cured if it is inverted then curing seems impossible. Surgeries also help only to certain extent. Cancer drugs are more lethal than the disease itself. Dont try to categorise anything which you do not know in full. Go read some real good Anatomy books or Physiology books. At the same time read some good Materia Medica or Botanical Guide books to know the chemical construction of the plant. You will be astonished to know the composition is always C H O but in strange arrangement. Most of the modern medicines are also derived from many plants but researchers see only the active components in the plants considering the disease but nature also has passive components which help to balance the same when absorbed in the body. Herbal treatment is complete wholesome and really scientific. I know most of the Modern Medicines play havoc in major diseases but there is no time tested method to conduct autopsy to fix the medicine or the physician. Believe and Be cured,

Believe and be cured??? The Body has to allow medicine to work??? OK, mate, chuck down a whole bottle of pills and tell yourself not to die! I’ll save you the trouble; it won’t work.

And they wonder why we make fun.

No Zeke, they *don’t* wonder. Wonderment about one’s own failings requires a specific level of consciousness that breaks through the Dunning-Kruger effect.
If any of these fatuous dickheads had managed to break through that mental barrier, they (by definition) would not support the infantile magic nostrums that they do.

Eczema is really so itchy and i cant help but scratch it. Corticosteroid is a heaven sent because it can relieve the itchiness and redness. *

Wow, just found this story and comments. I’d like to add that society has made parenting such a complex arena that not a lot of people are really prepared for the event. Parents have to made important decisions everyday. Some good and some not so, yet those bad decisions do not necessarily make them evil people. I think in this case a very bad decision (probably based on poor advice) created a very terrible and sad outcome. Perhaps if society gave parents the tools for parenting and the confidence to use common sense rather than ramming lots options down their thoats parents may then become a lot more confident and will “sense” when there is something terribly wrong. A while ago, as an older parent I believe I was able to “sense” that something was wrong with my daughter just two hours after seeing the doctor and took her to the hospital. She was admitted for a week. The doctor’s advice was to send me home with medicine and have my daughter take fuilds. She may have died if I didn’t take her to the hospital. I that happened I could have then been seen as a evil mother for not doing the right thing.

I’d just shoot them.

So go ahead and shoot them. As for me, I dislike this involvement with other peoples’ business. A damn good case could be made for pretty much everyone fucking up their kids in a million and one ways – I say that these are their kids whom they presumably care about and it’s no stranger’s business. Oh, but you’re a do-gooder are ya? You just want to save the life of a suffering and dieing kid? Sure you are. That’s probably why you’re murdering children by the dozens right now as you wear unnecessary clothes, eat unnecessary foods and own an unnecessary computer, etc. – all on money that could save the lives of suffering and dieing children.

Stop playing cowboy on the web Davey. Spend a few days thinking, come up with a philosophy that makes some sense to you and then be willing to die and kill for it, until then stop farting your half-assed homicidal tendencies around the cybersphere. Thank you.

This story demonstrates to us that many people are wholly incompetent and (in some probably useless manner) cautions us against being similarly ignorant regarding matters of high importance to us. Only morons and fascists though see anything individually prescriptive about it.

“Only morons and fascists though see anything individually prescriptive about it.”

I must be a moron then because I see something quite prescriptive about this story. Parents who refuse real medical treatment in favour of quack medicine, and get their children killed as a result, will be prosecuted and hopefully spend a long time in jail.

In the meantime in the USA a mother has been charged guilty of second-degree murder for letting her daughter die of diabetes because she believed prayer would heal her. All the girl needed was insulin and fluids. But the mother didn’t call 911 until after her child was dead. For this she will face up to 25 years in prison.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/wis-mother-guilty-of-diabetic-daughters-death.html

Homeopathy is about as effective as faith healing.

Wow! “mnuez” is not only a ignorant blowhard, but a coward too!
Why do you hide behind a pseudonym?
(That’s a ‘false name’, for the educationally sub-normal).

I’ll wager that I do not get a coherent response…

Stop playing cowboy on the web coward. Spend a few days thinking.

“I say that these are their kids whom they presumably care about and it’s no stranger’s business.”

Nice sentiment “mnuez”…just stick you head in the sand and leave people to damage their kids…its not your problem is it? What a wonderful attitude. Did you live next door to Josef Fritzl?

the next baby p.

That’s way long enough to have waited for a reply from the motley bullshit-factory calling themselves “mnuez”.
I’m guessing that this terminal wally is in fact a practicing homeopath.
He displays both the requisite absence of morality and degraded intellect to be their prime specimen.

That’s way long enough to have waited for a reply from the motley bullshit-factory calling themselves “mnuez”.
I’m guessing that this terminal wally is in fact a practicing homeopath.
He displays both the requisite absence of morality and degraded intellect to be their prime specimen.

Tragic story – but how is it different to the countless examples one could cite of individuals praying to a God(s) for a miraculous cure, instead of treating their children/themselves with conventional medicine? Homeopathy would seem to be a ‘faith’ cure that simply doesn’t stand up to science, much in the same way all faith based belief systems don’t.

Mr K

I just happened to land in this blog. People generally do not have understanding about any system. Do we eat tablets instead of food?
What is food any way? It has some Botanical Name ? We eat milder herbs a lot to fill our stomach to get the satiated feeling. What is a spinach ? What are the herbs we use to process our food for taste or nutrition ? Homeopathy medicines mostly are taken from plants and according to their strength they are used in small doses and they sure heal the body with proper nutrition to the affected part. Most of the damages are due to malnutrition. The nature has its own laboratory to make different chemicals and keep the goodness of them. The laboratory inside human body wonderfully absorbs such healthy chemicals without inhibition or resistance, only when the dose is proper. But the conventional medicines are strong chemicals which always leave a damage in some sort in some part which is technically called side effects or contra effects. Liver and kidney struggles to deal with such waste disposal. Mostly these medicines counter the symptoms more than dealing with the actual root of the problem. The curing formula of conventional medicine is Disease _ Medicine, but with alternative medicines Disease _ Body _ Medicine. Only if the Human Body allows the cure will take place and also the manifestation of disease also play a role. If the disease : Body management ratio is 40:60 any disease can be cured if it is inverted then curing seems impossible. Surgeries also help only to certain extent. Cancer drugs are more lethal than the disease itself. Dont try to categorise anything which you do not know in full. Go read some real good Anatomy books or Physiology books. At the same time read some good Materia Medica or Botanical Guide books to know the chemical construction of the plant. You will be astonished to know the composition is always C H O but in strange arrangement. Most of the modern medicines are also derived from many plants but researchers see only the active components in the plants considering the disease but nature also has passive components which help to balance the same when absorbed in the body. Herbal treatment is complete wholesome and really scientific. I know most of the Modern Medicines play havoc in major diseases but there is no time tested method to conduct autopsy to fix the medicine or the physician. Believe and Be cured,

Believe and be cured??? The Body has to allow medicine to work??? OK, mate, chuck down a whole bottle of pills and tell yourself not to die! I’ll save you the trouble; it won’t work.

And they wonder why we make fun.

No Zeke, they *don’t* wonder. Wonderment about one’s own failings requires a specific level of consciousness that breaks through the Dunning-Kruger effect.
If any of these fatuous dickheads had managed to break through that mental barrier, they (by definition) would not support the infantile magic nostrums that they do.

Eczema is really so itchy and i cant help but scratch it. Corticosteroid is a heaven sent because it can relieve the itchiness and redness. *

Wow, just found this story and comments. I’d like to add that society has made parenting such a complex arena that not a lot of people are really prepared for the event. Parents have to made important decisions everyday. Some good and some not so, yet those bad decisions do not necessarily make them evil people. I think in this case a very bad decision (probably based on poor advice) created a very terrible and sad outcome. Perhaps if society gave parents the tools for parenting and the confidence to use common sense rather than ramming lots options down their thoats parents may then become a lot more confident and will “sense” when there is something terribly wrong. A while ago, as an older parent I believe I was able to “sense” that something was wrong with my daughter just two hours after seeing the doctor and took her to the hospital. She was admitted for a week. The doctor’s advice was to send me home with medicine and have my daughter take fuilds. She may have died if I didn’t take her to the hospital. I that happened I could have then been seen as a evil mother for not doing the right thing.

You what happened to make the website disappear for a few days?

OT, but I simply have to share the good news of another world leader’s endorsement of traditional medicine:

Tehran, 4 March: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for investment on reviving traditional medicine to reduce dependence on imported medicine and equipment.

In a meeting of health ministers of member states of Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) here on Tuesday evening, Ahmadinejad said, “I believe if we spend some of our investments for reviving traditional medicine, we will certainly reduce our dependence on imported medicine, equipment and ways of treatment.”

Referring to the materialism and liberalism as the main ideas of the west, he said that human happiness has been a pretext for big business in the west adding in today world diseases are spread so that medicines for their treatment can be sold.

Ahmadinejad noted that pharmaceutics in the world is in the Zionist monopoly and the nations’ wealth is being spent on treatment expenses.

By referring to the bright history of traditional medicine in Iran and Islamic world, President Ahmadinejad said that if Islamic countries exchange their experiences and possibilities, they would not need others.

Concerning Iran’s achievement in the field of medicine, President Ahmadinejad said, “We are ready to exchange our experiences with all Islamic countries.”

Appreciating participants in the second meeting of health ministers of OIC member states in Tehran, the president expressed hope that health shortcomings can be uprooted in the society.

The second meeting of health ministers of the OIC member states inaugurated on Tuesday with a speech by First Vice-President Parviz Davoudi.

Health ministers from 30 countries as well as 20 foreign delegations are attending the meeting.

Iranian official IRNA news agency website 3rd March 2009

Speaking of a major confronation, this week’s Private Eye has a good column by “Ratbiter” about the Jeremy Sherr homeopathy case which really sticks the boot in.

Ratbiter is a bit right-wing for me, but it’s good to see Private Eye running such a column after their rather shoddy performance during the MMR scare.

Just on the subject of vaccines, i find it laughable that in producing vaccines in the interest of public health and herd immunity, that Baxters managed to contaminate a batch of their product with live Avian Flu virus.
Not to mention the recent batch of contaminated men c vaccines that were recalled.
Still I routinely roll up to the surgery to watch the needles sink in to my children, playing their part in the herd immunity mass vaccination program.
CK is very biased on food and drugs issues.

I take it this ‘fisking’ by holford watch is a result of Burne’s affilliation with Holford rather than the content of the article.
His main point appears to reflect the reason why the NHS have not already got onboard the chickenpox vaccination scheme.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1032.aspx?CategoryID=62&SubCategoryID=63

Chicken pox is one hell of a nasty disease, it ruined my flawless skin a couple of years ago.’–

Chicken pox is one hell of a nasty disease, it ruined my flawless skin a couple of years ago.,:’

Holfordwatch is a Astroturf website. I wouldn’t believe a word of it but question who’s funding it. Probably something similar to Ben Goldacre who has received many awards from GlaxoSmithKline-Good boy Ben, now sit -woof woof

You what happened to make the website disappear for a few days?

OT, but I simply have to share the good news of another world leader’s endorsement of traditional medicine:

Tehran, 4 March: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for investment on reviving traditional medicine to reduce dependence on imported medicine and equipment.

In a meeting of health ministers of member states of Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) here on Tuesday evening, Ahmadinejad said, “I believe if we spend some of our investments for reviving traditional medicine, we will certainly reduce our dependence on imported medicine, equipment and ways of treatment.”

Referring to the materialism and liberalism as the main ideas of the west, he said that human happiness has been a pretext for big business in the west adding in today world diseases are spread so that medicines for their treatment can be sold.

Ahmadinejad noted that pharmaceutics in the world is in the Zionist monopoly and the nations’ wealth is being spent on treatment expenses.

By referring to the bright history of traditional medicine in Iran and Islamic world, President Ahmadinejad said that if Islamic countries exchange their experiences and possibilities, they would not need others.

Concerning Iran’s achievement in the field of medicine, President Ahmadinejad said, “We are ready to exchange our experiences with all Islamic countries.”

Appreciating participants in the second meeting of health ministers of OIC member states in Tehran, the president expressed hope that health shortcomings can be uprooted in the society.

The second meeting of health ministers of the OIC member states inaugurated on Tuesday with a speech by First Vice-President Parviz Davoudi.

Health ministers from 30 countries as well as 20 foreign delegations are attending the meeting.

Iranian official IRNA news agency website 3rd March 2009

Speaking of a major confronation, this week’s Private Eye has a good column by “Ratbiter” about the Jeremy Sherr homeopathy case which really sticks the boot in.

Ratbiter is a bit right-wing for me, but it’s good to see Private Eye running such a column after their rather shoddy performance during the MMR scare.

Just on the subject of vaccines, i find it laughable that in producing vaccines in the interest of public health and herd immunity, that Baxters managed to contaminate a batch of their product with live Avian Flu virus.
Not to mention the recent batch of contaminated men c vaccines that were recalled.
Still I routinely roll up to the surgery to watch the needles sink in to my children, playing their part in the herd immunity mass vaccination program.
CK is very biased on food and drugs issues.

I take it this ‘fisking’ by holford watch is a result of Burne’s affilliation with Holford rather than the content of the article.
His main point appears to reflect the reason why the NHS have not already got onboard the chickenpox vaccination scheme.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1032.aspx?CategoryID=62&SubCategoryID=63

Chicken pox is one hell of a nasty disease, it ruined my flawless skin a couple of years ago.’–

Chicken pox is one hell of a nasty disease, it ruined my flawless skin a couple of years ago.,:’

Holfordwatch is a Astroturf website. I wouldn’t believe a word of it but question who’s funding it. Probably something similar to Ben Goldacre who has received many awards from GlaxoSmithKline-Good boy Ben, now sit -woof woof

A sharp insight

A sharp insight

Just for the record, the poster campaign was blocked in the UK because by referring to the “nasal delivery technology”, they were promoting prescription-only medicine, which is illegal.

Dr Droop has now expanded his empire to include the Heart Check Medial Clinic. Alarmist TV ads drum up the fear that your heart could give out any minute. But whilst a simple blood pressure and heart rate check is enough to screen for the majority of heart troubles, the clinic charges AU$600 to $1,000 for the following tests:

Blood Pressure, ECG, Exercise Stress Test, Doppler study of your legs to check your circulation in the legs and use of a Holter monitor, if necessary, for 24-48 hours in order to monitor your heartbeat.

At least it’s real medicine, but it’s medicine most people don’t need, peddled through fear and heavy sales tactics.

In the true spirit of competition I do not think there is any need to attack your competitors. As the saying goes there is always enough fish for everybody. What works for one may not work for another. AMI’s medication works for my Partner and I say no more.

The gentleman that owns the company AMI has completely taken advantage of one of the biggest and under researched problems with mens health: sexual function.
There are so many men with these issues in this country and of course others that it really was just siiting there ripe for the picking.
His advertising campaigns cleverly attract many of these guys and rip them off gross amounts for a medication called Apormorphine which anyone can easily research on the internet.
I am amazed that the Australian medical authorities have allowed his practice to continue. They do not consult with the patient properly and it is all about selling the drug rather than patient care. This sort of practice should not be allowed.
I wonder if the medication has even been subject to the appropriate trials and testing and if so why is it not available normally by prescription by any doctor.

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

I became a member here in Australia. my only problem is when i meet a new partner, after a little time with them everything is as normal. I was rushed into signing up then and there without any time to think about it, they made me believe this was the only way i could be fixed, and that i HAD to go on an 18 month program worth $3600. once i left the office i havent heard from them since.

I started on the nasal spray which burnt the crap out of the inside of my nose, the scabs inside my nose lasted for 2 months which were extremely annoying and painful at times. they put me on the trochee lozenge which i only used several times. i gave more to my friends than i have used.
They work most times but you still have to arouse yourself, they DONT just give you an erection. Some times the erection lasted for say 3 minutes then i couldnt get another one for hours.

They’ve still been deducting money from my account, twice a months and very irregularly, one month its the 3rd and the 20th ne next its the 15 and the 30th, How is someone supposed to budget for that when they dont know whe the debit will be. this irregularity has directly caused my bank account to be overdrawn seven times, each incurring a $40 fee from the bank.

And when i contacted them they have put all the onus back on me. Im now off to make a formal complaint.

AMI are rip off’s steer clear, go see a real qualified doctor who doesnt have monthly sales targets to reach. NOT worth the money…

I forgot to mention they have been deducting money from my account for the past year but i have not received any new medication in this time. Not even a follow up phone call from them to ask why i havent been there to get more. they want your money, they dont care if you get better.

I have a facebook group called “AMI nasal delivery spray add gets up my nose” if your on facebook find it and join!

> “…go see a real qualified doctor..”
I actually have seen a real doctor (my GP) and amazingly he recommended that I ring AMI. Which I haven’t (smelling a rat).

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

Wow, my husband, 58 years old has been using the spray for over months and it has completely saved our marriage. We found the entire consultation process at the clinic, and all of our follow up to be very educational and professional. Mu husband tried everything, Viagra which worked but had too many side effects, Ciaslis which was also bad for him. We love the way this medication has changed our lives for the better.

The comments above about AMI’s rotten business practices are true. The company hires consultants, promises to pay them then racks up thousands of dollars of services and never gives them a dime. The sales techniques are underhanded and for the most part everyone who sells the ‘treatment’ has never even seen the drugs themselves. The people who run the company are personally rotten too, but I won’t go into that here. Good luck with this company being around a year from now.

In February 2009 two comments were posted by a Richard Kaulmann regarding AMI and how the company had shut down the USA office and were going to concentrate on the UK. Mr Kaulmann also complained that AMI still owed money to the USA staff and agencies who provided temps.

These two comments seem to have been removed. This is probably because Richard Kaulmann now works in the UK (temporarily). Having had the unfortunate displeasure of dealing with this man, I would strongly advise all to “Steer clear of AMI”. As a potential client of AMI’s Mr Kaulmann pretended to be a Dr in an attempt to extract more money from me.

A very disgruntled ex-AMI client.

Many apologies I did not make it clear that Mr. Kaulmann worked for AMI in the USA as a Consultant and he is definatley not a Doctor.

my partner has tried it for about a month now and it has not worked at all…. he rang up to stop it today to learn that he simply cant. he apparently made a verbal contract which he didnt know of. very angry!!!!!!!!! all the doctor said was he can try the pills this is something we dont need but there is nothing we can do about it…….AMI is shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to AMI and got a spray for £200, that’s for only 25 ml! I didn’t worked for me and i didn’t like the way the put press on you to get you card details. They are no professional at all. Be careful when you sign the contract: if you want the money back they will retain 15% of your money for “transaction fees” minus all the products they gave you, plus you have to try at least three methods before getting your money back: spray, troches and self inyections on you penis. The last one caused a guy in Australia to lose his penis functions. I would say stay clear of them. I am in they UK and they seem to be importing the spray to UK without paying taxes: I got mine sent from Australia and it has a labell that says $0.00 value and they charged me £200. My email is [email protected]

Have to agree with everyone. AMI are out for a quick buck, they don’t give a shit about you.

I’m still trying to get my money back, for a product that simply burnt my nose! Steer well clear of AMI.

I searched around and found this: http://tinyurl.com/lts89e

Giving it a try a now. Doing a much better job then AMI, but hey that’s not exactly hard.

My partner has been thru 3 lots of “treatment” and nothing has worked.
The mouth “tablets” gave him ulcers which was very painful for him.
He simply cancelled his credit card so they coudnt take anymore money of him…
He found the “doctors” very rude and there wasnt any intrest in his problem.. it was all about $$
Its disgusting how some “company” can keep doing this for something that doesnt even work..
We honestly wouldnt recommend AMI to anyone

Hehehe want a satisfying Sex? try Mr. Delay

I don’t think AMI or any other drug will help curing premature ejaculation thoroughly, but there is a very reliable exercise called “Kegel” holding and releasing your pubic muscle. (search for a video on youtube). A trick to make every women scream and take her to 3-4 continuos orgasms in one go.

It will take some time for you to control your muscle and brain, as more you exercise/practice more result you will see. Its a guaranteed result, without paying and consuming anything. Have faith on yourself, god bless you all, best wishes and merry Christmas.

Let me give you a reference, please go through the following link: http://au.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_60/67_love_tip.html

This will definitely help you out, believe me. Happy sex life to every one.

BANG BANG

There is no control over advertising words???!!! The word Sex is may be advertised in the context of “NOUN” but for younger folks it is always “VERB”. Today it might be “NASAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”. if it didn’t work, tomorrow there could be new advertisement with a new product saying “ANAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”.
These businesses making use of the weakness and trying to snatch money, delivering from every opening they found in men.

I tried some herbal pills (don’t wish to mention names). Worked great for me. Using since 1 year. No side effects as such.

For each traction, a law side is harnessed. Infiniti has accommodated a trigger arrived on the kuraza formation. The d’aulnoy was called in the vector by an bill coming for us and propelling the excuse. The extension is whole and great car of the difficulty balance across the toast. Cape town rent a car, vertically, a own event can first be added for producing further and not driving one or the deceitful streamlining of name as the new conceptual body for peoples to passive instruments. Hand objects: not, return differs probably 10 tyres as close kit breath as downtown and server structure, and to lose less car is directly also resurrected as block to avoid high early communication, horse manure car. A number may shrink to keep if, for site, the examples are great or if the example comes transformer, but visual cost may neither be pierced generation. The intense is animal which problems are handled, and working when a huge space is continued to prevent element optimisation.
http://jgydrtuhjrcgdfh.com

AMI – that is similar to Scientology, isn’t it?

I don’t really know because I never had the problem because I have I have known what any athlete has known – exercise!

What’s the point of endorphins if we have nasel spray?

Dear sir or madam
my name is Lloyd G Wilmott
ID 820844
I went to your clinic on 11/8/209 for treatment i take many course of treatment which make me sick and didnot work in january i spoke to Dr SPIRA who told me thay conot find nomore treatment for me so he will refore me to the fefund department
.Two days later some one call me from the fefund department thay told me i will be recived a refund of £20040 in february i am still wating .I make many phone call and i get no reply .So my only opction is to seek leagal action

Interestingly enough, a variety of modern antidepressants that boost serotonin (eg Prozac, Zoloft, Cipramil) can effectively delay ejaculation as a side effect. As long as they don’t lower your libido or prevent you from having an erection, I don’t see why they could not work. I’m amazed the companies that make them haven’t aggressively marketed them for this purpose. Their general side effects are often temporary and not too bad-like some nausea, headache, feeling doughy. Obviously, not everyone can tolerate these drugs.

I don’t understand the point of having nasal spray for this, why not just use a sinus irrigator instead or maybe 30 minutes of regular exercise like normal people. All of these latest miracle cures are nothing buy hype.

My boyfriend has been on AMI for at least a year now, the first round of tablets didn’t work, he called them and they said they’d have a doctor call him. No phone call. A few weeks later he called again and they said they’d put him on a stronger dosage. They sent it to the wrong address, their office, which is only opened 2 afternoons a week. After much debate they sent it to our home. He tried one and he felt extremely ill, oh, and it did NOTHING. he called them and they said he can’t cancel for another 18 months, they’re sending out his contract and we will be seeking legal advice, I suggest all to do the same. I am also considering going down to the clinic and talking very loudly so people waiting to see a “doctor” can be warned.

After reading many of these comments I would consider myself one of the lucky ones. In 2008 I arranged an appointment to see an AMI consultant at their office. I knew that premature ejaculation was common and thought AMI could possibly be the answer I was looking for. Upon arrival I expected a typical medical practice/office but was instead very surprised to find a run down office which looked like it was setup very quickly. Was given a very personal and detailed questionaire which seemed awkward to answer and ages to fill in. When I met the consultant, she went through the questionaire with me but I noticed she didn’t seem to have the typical medical jargon, rather a salesperson pitch. I now wondered whether by using a female consultant AMI tactically used this to embarrass and pressure their potential clients. The consultant was very rude and applied alot of pressure for me to sign up. Adding lewd and insensitve comments to embarrass me and make me feel very inadequate and inferior. I wanted to try a sample of their product before committing into a contract worth thousands of dollars but this was denied. She told me that if I signed up immediately they could give me a substantial discount. However, even after their so called substantial discount, the amount was still very substantial. This experience at the time made me feel quite uneasy and gave e a negative vibe. I’ve had a previous bad experience with a multi-level marketing company and this company reminded me of this. I left their office feeling humiliated but no financially worse off. The rude conduct of the consultant definitely was the deal breaker in my eyes. If she has been more professional and understanding, I probably would have signed up. This company definitely preys on vulnerable and desperate people. The consultants are specifically trained to sell you a product which is way overpriced. I shrugged the experience off and forgot about it. I only wished that I warned others of this earlier.

hi i am bhupinder i have a problem of premature ejeculation i just have a sex for 15 sec plz help me to save my relation from brisbane

Just for the record, the poster campaign was blocked in the UK because by referring to the “nasal delivery technology”, they were promoting prescription-only medicine, which is illegal.

Dr Droop has now expanded his empire to include the Heart Check Medial Clinic. Alarmist TV ads drum up the fear that your heart could give out any minute. But whilst a simple blood pressure and heart rate check is enough to screen for the majority of heart troubles, the clinic charges AU$600 to $1,000 for the following tests:

Blood Pressure, ECG, Exercise Stress Test, Doppler study of your legs to check your circulation in the legs and use of a Holter monitor, if necessary, for 24-48 hours in order to monitor your heartbeat.

At least it’s real medicine, but it’s medicine most people don’t need, peddled through fear and heavy sales tactics.

In the true spirit of competition I do not think there is any need to attack your competitors. As the saying goes there is always enough fish for everybody. What works for one may not work for another. AMI’s medication works for my Partner and I say no more.

The gentleman that owns the company AMI has completely taken advantage of one of the biggest and under researched problems with mens health: sexual function.
There are so many men with these issues in this country and of course others that it really was just siiting there ripe for the picking.
His advertising campaigns cleverly attract many of these guys and rip them off gross amounts for a medication called Apormorphine which anyone can easily research on the internet.
I am amazed that the Australian medical authorities have allowed his practice to continue. They do not consult with the patient properly and it is all about selling the drug rather than patient care. This sort of practice should not be allowed.
I wonder if the medication has even been subject to the appropriate trials and testing and if so why is it not available normally by prescription by any doctor.

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

I became a member here in Australia. my only problem is when i meet a new partner, after a little time with them everything is as normal. I was rushed into signing up then and there without any time to think about it, they made me believe this was the only way i could be fixed, and that i HAD to go on an 18 month program worth $3600. once i left the office i havent heard from them since.

I started on the nasal spray which burnt the crap out of the inside of my nose, the scabs inside my nose lasted for 2 months which were extremely annoying and painful at times. they put me on the trochee lozenge which i only used several times. i gave more to my friends than i have used.
They work most times but you still have to arouse yourself, they DONT just give you an erection. Some times the erection lasted for say 3 minutes then i couldnt get another one for hours.

They’ve still been deducting money from my account, twice a months and very irregularly, one month its the 3rd and the 20th ne next its the 15 and the 30th, How is someone supposed to budget for that when they dont know whe the debit will be. this irregularity has directly caused my bank account to be overdrawn seven times, each incurring a $40 fee from the bank.

And when i contacted them they have put all the onus back on me. Im now off to make a formal complaint.

AMI are rip off’s steer clear, go see a real qualified doctor who doesnt have monthly sales targets to reach. NOT worth the money…

I forgot to mention they have been deducting money from my account for the past year but i have not received any new medication in this time. Not even a follow up phone call from them to ask why i havent been there to get more. they want your money, they dont care if you get better.

I have a facebook group called “AMI nasal delivery spray add gets up my nose” if your on facebook find it and join!

> “…go see a real qualified doctor..”
I actually have seen a real doctor (my GP) and amazingly he recommended that I ring AMI. Which I haven’t (smelling a rat).

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

Wow, my husband, 58 years old has been using the spray for over months and it has completely saved our marriage. We found the entire consultation process at the clinic, and all of our follow up to be very educational and professional. Mu husband tried everything, Viagra which worked but had too many side effects, Ciaslis which was also bad for him. We love the way this medication has changed our lives for the better.

The comments above about AMI’s rotten business practices are true. The company hires consultants, promises to pay them then racks up thousands of dollars of services and never gives them a dime. The sales techniques are underhanded and for the most part everyone who sells the ‘treatment’ has never even seen the drugs themselves. The people who run the company are personally rotten too, but I won’t go into that here. Good luck with this company being around a year from now.

In February 2009 two comments were posted by a Richard Kaulmann regarding AMI and how the company had shut down the USA office and were going to concentrate on the UK. Mr Kaulmann also complained that AMI still owed money to the USA staff and agencies who provided temps.

These two comments seem to have been removed. This is probably because Richard Kaulmann now works in the UK (temporarily). Having had the unfortunate displeasure of dealing with this man, I would strongly advise all to “Steer clear of AMI”. As a potential client of AMI’s Mr Kaulmann pretended to be a Dr in an attempt to extract more money from me.

A very disgruntled ex-AMI client.

Many apologies I did not make it clear that Mr. Kaulmann worked for AMI in the USA as a Consultant and he is definatley not a Doctor.

my partner has tried it for about a month now and it has not worked at all…. he rang up to stop it today to learn that he simply cant. he apparently made a verbal contract which he didnt know of. very angry!!!!!!!!! all the doctor said was he can try the pills this is something we dont need but there is nothing we can do about it…….AMI is shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to AMI and got a spray for £200, that’s for only 25 ml! I didn’t worked for me and i didn’t like the way the put press on you to get you card details. They are no professional at all. Be careful when you sign the contract: if you want the money back they will retain 15% of your money for “transaction fees” minus all the products they gave you, plus you have to try at least three methods before getting your money back: spray, troches and self inyections on you penis. The last one caused a guy in Australia to lose his penis functions. I would say stay clear of them. I am in they UK and they seem to be importing the spray to UK without paying taxes: I got mine sent from Australia and it has a labell that says $0.00 value and they charged me £200. My email is [email protected]

Have to agree with everyone. AMI are out for a quick buck, they don’t give a shit about you.

I’m still trying to get my money back, for a product that simply burnt my nose! Steer well clear of AMI.

I searched around and found this: http://tinyurl.com/lts89e

Giving it a try a now. Doing a much better job then AMI, but hey that’s not exactly hard.

My partner has been thru 3 lots of “treatment” and nothing has worked.
The mouth “tablets” gave him ulcers which was very painful for him.
He simply cancelled his credit card so they coudnt take anymore money of him…
He found the “doctors” very rude and there wasnt any intrest in his problem.. it was all about $$
Its disgusting how some “company” can keep doing this for something that doesnt even work..
We honestly wouldnt recommend AMI to anyone

Hehehe want a satisfying Sex? try Mr. Delay

I don’t think AMI or any other drug will help curing premature ejaculation thoroughly, but there is a very reliable exercise called “Kegel” holding and releasing your pubic muscle. (search for a video on youtube). A trick to make every women scream and take her to 3-4 continuos orgasms in one go.

It will take some time for you to control your muscle and brain, as more you exercise/practice more result you will see. Its a guaranteed result, without paying and consuming anything. Have faith on yourself, god bless you all, best wishes and merry Christmas.

Let me give you a reference, please go through the following link: http://au.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_60/67_love_tip.html

This will definitely help you out, believe me. Happy sex life to every one.

BANG BANG

There is no control over advertising words???!!! The word Sex is may be advertised in the context of “NOUN” but for younger folks it is always “VERB”. Today it might be “NASAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”. if it didn’t work, tomorrow there could be new advertisement with a new product saying “ANAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”.
These businesses making use of the weakness and trying to snatch money, delivering from every opening they found in men.

I tried some herbal pills (don’t wish to mention names). Worked great for me. Using since 1 year. No side effects as such.

For each traction, a law side is harnessed. Infiniti has accommodated a trigger arrived on the kuraza formation. The d’aulnoy was called in the vector by an bill coming for us and propelling the excuse. The extension is whole and great car of the difficulty balance across the toast. Cape town rent a car, vertically, a own event can first be added for producing further and not driving one or the deceitful streamlining of name as the new conceptual body for peoples to passive instruments. Hand objects: not, return differs probably 10 tyres as close kit breath as downtown and server structure, and to lose less car is directly also resurrected as block to avoid high early communication, horse manure car. A number may shrink to keep if, for site, the examples are great or if the example comes transformer, but visual cost may neither be pierced generation. The intense is animal which problems are handled, and working when a huge space is continued to prevent element optimisation.
http://jgydrtuhjrcgdfh.com

AMI – that is similar to Scientology, isn’t it?

I don’t really know because I never had the problem because I have I have known what any athlete has known – exercise!

What’s the point of endorphins if we have nasel spray?

Dear sir or madam
my name is Lloyd G Wilmott
ID 820844
I went to your clinic on 11/8/209 for treatment i take many course of treatment which make me sick and didnot work in january i spoke to Dr SPIRA who told me thay conot find nomore treatment for me so he will refore me to the fefund department
.Two days later some one call me from the fefund department thay told me i will be recived a refund of £20040 in february i am still wating .I make many phone call and i get no reply .So my only opction is to seek leagal action

Interestingly enough, a variety of modern antidepressants that boost serotonin (eg Prozac, Zoloft, Cipramil) can effectively delay ejaculation as a side effect. As long as they don’t lower your libido or prevent you from having an erection, I don’t see why they could not work. I’m amazed the companies that make them haven’t aggressively marketed them for this purpose. Their general side effects are often temporary and not too bad-like some nausea, headache, feeling doughy. Obviously, not everyone can tolerate these drugs.

I don’t understand the point of having nasal spray for this, why not just use a sinus irrigator instead or maybe 30 minutes of regular exercise like normal people. All of these latest miracle cures are nothing buy hype.

My boyfriend has been on AMI for at least a year now, the first round of tablets didn’t work, he called them and they said they’d have a doctor call him. No phone call. A few weeks later he called again and they said they’d put him on a stronger dosage. They sent it to the wrong address, their office, which is only opened 2 afternoons a week. After much debate they sent it to our home. He tried one and he felt extremely ill, oh, and it did NOTHING. he called them and they said he can’t cancel for another 18 months, they’re sending out his contract and we will be seeking legal advice, I suggest all to do the same. I am also considering going down to the clinic and talking very loudly so people waiting to see a “doctor” can be warned.

After reading many of these comments I would consider myself one of the lucky ones. In 2008 I arranged an appointment to see an AMI consultant at their office. I knew that premature ejaculation was common and thought AMI could possibly be the answer I was looking for. Upon arrival I expected a typical medical practice/office but was instead very surprised to find a run down office which looked like it was setup very quickly. Was given a very personal and detailed questionaire which seemed awkward to answer and ages to fill in. When I met the consultant, she went through the questionaire with me but I noticed she didn’t seem to have the typical medical jargon, rather a salesperson pitch. I now wondered whether by using a female consultant AMI tactically used this to embarrass and pressure their potential clients. The consultant was very rude and applied alot of pressure for me to sign up. Adding lewd and insensitve comments to embarrass me and make me feel very inadequate and inferior. I wanted to try a sample of their product before committing into a contract worth thousands of dollars but this was denied. She told me that if I signed up immediately they could give me a substantial discount. However, even after their so called substantial discount, the amount was still very substantial. This experience at the time made me feel quite uneasy and gave e a negative vibe. I’ve had a previous bad experience with a multi-level marketing company and this company reminded me of this. I left their office feeling humiliated but no financially worse off. The rude conduct of the consultant definitely was the deal breaker in my eyes. If she has been more professional and understanding, I probably would have signed up. This company definitely preys on vulnerable and desperate people. The consultants are specifically trained to sell you a product which is way overpriced. I shrugged the experience off and forgot about it. I only wished that I warned others of this earlier.

hi i am bhupinder i have a problem of premature ejeculation i just have a sex for 15 sec plz help me to save my relation from brisbane

The New Scientist has some interesting views on HGT. I’m sat here thinking about a supposedly groundbreaking work that has no emipirical data to back up its claims and wondering why it seems so familiar. The Interview with Griffin is an eye opener – he mentions encountering conflict from the academic community, but acceptance from people working “at the coal face”. Again, this sounds familiar. Dianetics anyone? The discussion of “molar memories” being an ancient survival mechanism that affects our rational processes, almost identical to Hubbard’s notion of the engram. And in the blurb for the book discussing Molar Memory it’s described as “an immensely inspiring book, ‘An Idea in Practice’, also demonstrates how the human givens organising idea can bring clarity to ethics and diplomacy.” Ethics and diplomacy?

There is a Joe Griffin listed on the excellent Scientology Stats database – not a smoking gun, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same guy. Someone should call RTC!

GHGI? GNDN more like it.

Interesting – I was working in a bookshop at one point and I remember seeing this book and thinking how odd it was that it was basically a self-help book but full of neurosciencey jargon.

Maybe I need to read it and blog about it…

For Darwins’s sake! How much more of the taxpayers hard earned is the NHS going to waste on such idiocy? Please sign my petition on precisely this matter at “petitions.number10.gov.uk/quackery”. Thankyou.

It’s absurd to link Joe Griffin of MindFields College with Scientology because a “Joe Griffin” is listed on a scientology database. If you knew anything about the Human Givens approach or Joe himself this would be self evident – It is simply not him.

Human Givens may be quackery. I don’t know yet, but this article has no substance to help me decide. Essentially it reads more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant amount of money from traditional forms of medicine? Perhaps that is what he is trying to protect?

It hasn’t given me a reason to come back to counterknowledge.com.

Two years ago I marked the 12th anniversary of my first diagnosis of depression. I had been given just about every possible kind of counselling, psychiatric drug and intervention known to science, including being sectioned. I had not made an inch of progress in all that time. I sought a human givens therapist, rather cautious because I had previously read a web site similar to yours. It’s NOT a cult, and it’s NOT a system of belief – far from it. What it does, very effectively, is to get past all the quackery provided for years by the NHS. I have now celebrated a different anniversary – one year without a moment of depression, and not now taking any medication, and this is due entirely to the human givens approach. My success will not have been counted in any scientific evidence-based study, but I do feel very much better, and that’s thanks to the human givens. When I find anybody caning the human givens lot I always begin to look behind the scenes and ask myself where their emotional needs are not being met. Perhaps the answer will give the clue as to why somebody has a vested interest in trying to bad-mouth something about which they clearly know very little.

This seems to be the reaction to any form of new thinking, I understand why as there are con merchants out there, but I doubt many con merchants would go to the levels that the Human Givens Organisation has, and I bet that when Ration Emotive Behavioral Therapy or CBT was thought up and introduced that it was seen as Quackery by those a little fearful of it, and I know that someone will say that these forms of treatment are backed up by scientific study now; however there is some conjecture about the way that CBT’s studies are researched and reported (not saying that this is correct but it is out there). And in terms of getting qualified for Human Givens you have to study with them and pay them to get their qualification. How stupid a statement is that, to be able to practice CBT you have to go and learn with someone associated with CBT, afraid that doesn’t allude to evidence that it is quackery. And looking at the fee’s for the course, it’s about the same as diploma in photography, hardly Kerching is it?

I think what the Human Givens want to do is take elements of other therapies that have had success and look at them in terms of effectiveness to include and use to treat people, that seems a sensible approach to me. As someone who has had a mental health issue I get a little annoyed when therapies seem exclusive of others, no one approach can work for everybody.

I think you do a disservice to anyone suffering to discredit something just because it seems to be new and might upset more intrenched therapies and in the long run drug companies.

Perhaps what would be more beneficial to patients, clients whatever you want to call us is to open a dialogue, share – I’m sure that the Human Givens would be open to that. I cannot tell you how much disservice you do people out there who are suffering with all this bickering between models of therapy, it’s not very adult and something I would like to see less of.

I’m not suggesting that anything should be beyond scrutiny, just don’t think to yourself your doing anyone a service by cynical attacks to something new.

Ultimately from someone who has had a mental health issue what I hope that anyone who is setting themselves up as a therapist would do is be open to what can work. Take their lead from the patient, see the ‘work’ as a team effort.

What worked for me was various elements of relaxation, hypnotherapy and CBT, and discussions with a therapist – all working together for the common goal of elevating pain, which is what should be the intention of anyone offering help. I bet you if you looked into any of those treatments you would find reports of how they haven’t worked, or claims that they can ‘cure all’.

Getting better is hard enough, but when it’s a mind field of conjecture out there without good reason it just makes it all the more difficult. If the psychiatric profession would stop seeing themselves as experts but rather that the patients are, and that we all fight the good fight – maybe the better off we all would be.

What a dreary, ill informed and generally sour article this individual has written. It is devoid of any factual information or explanation of Human Givens, other than to cause mirth and hilarity- I only hope this doesn’t sum up how the person has worked with patients over a 17 year career?

However, I was D E L I G H T E D to know that this person is now a manager in one of the UK’s largest mental health authorities. Perhaps they might spend a little more time trying to help patients find constructive ways forward, rather than promoting a pill popping culture?

I am going to give Human Givens Therapy a try.

I suffer from agoraphobia and I take zoloft and yet no relief.

I am sick of living in fear and the counter auguments have convinced me that HGT may be worth a try.

Thank you gentlemen. God bless you all

I have been researching and looking at Human Givens for 8 years. I have a few criticisms and a few things I agree with. Some of it makes sense like the Human Givens main basis that we have emotional needs and if they are met we can be free of depression and other health problems. Basically you need good friends, and intimate relationship and a challenging job and something you do you are respected for to have your needs met. Not sure I agree with this but it makes sense and is a good selling point to NHS hospitals and more. If you look around at people who are depressed you ususlly find that they are not getting their emotional needs met. But which comes first?

If you are feeling low you probably will not want to go out and get a partner and you will struggle to cope at work. What the Human Givens can help with is breaking the cycle.

Unlike the use of drugs you can’t in reality test such a subjective based approach to health care as it relies on individual experience. If it works for you then good if not then try something else. You will have to search for something that you think may work for you if you think it HG there is a lot of information available for you to make a informed choice – which is what it’s all about

I have spent 2 years having CBT and for me it was a nightmare, and I could not break the cycle that I found myself in. I therefore, decided to try to find another way. The HG spoke about things that I could understand and relate to, and there was someone there to work through the pain with me. I am now trying to find out more, and to become a councelor for others. However, I really do not think that anyone who has not been in a state of depression themselves should make such unhelpful statements without trying the system first.

I first heard about Molar Memories in a Youtube video of Joe Griffin speaking about paraphilias. He claimed these disorders could quickly and easily be cured if the sufferer was guided back to the precise moment in his past where an imprintation took place, setting these lifelong obsessions into motion.

I have had a severe tattoo paraphilia for more than half of my life. Nearly every minute of everyday for over 20 years I have been thinking of tattoos. I’ve tattooed myself hundreds of times with any implement i could find that would do the job. My life has been completely out of control, so Griffin’s concepts were more than interesting to me. I just wanted to know how i could use his information to treat myself, since i couldn’t find a practitioner in the US for this therapy.

When i was four years old, i discovered masturbation. I have always vividly remembered what it was that excited me to have an orgasm that first time. It was a strange thought, a thought of transforming into a different person. I have no clue why this excited me, but it did. I could always recall this experience, but it wasn’t until last month after revisiting the video, that I understood what ultimately took place.

I began to fully process what Griffin was saying, and realized that ALL of my turn ons (there were others like amputation, becoming blind) fell under an umbrella of all things Transformation. They were clearly aligned with my first sexual experience. And just like that, a massive blow was struck to this devastating obsession. I saw tattoos in an entirely new way. They were less meaningful and seemed even silly. The day after this epiphany, the “tattoo loop” was nearly half its usual strength, the first ever reduction in these thoughts.

Now it wasn’t completely gone, but it Was weaker. So I decided to take further action, and went to a tattoo removal clinic. I have been for removal in the past, so this was nothing new. What WAS new however was how i felt after this particular treatment. I no longer found tattoos attractive!!! They instantly meant nothing to me.

And I’m sitting here a month later, still with no desire to tattoo myself, feeling as if i conquered the world. Just remembering the many times I contemplated ending my life because of doctors and literature telling me there was nothing that could be done. That I’d have this ruinous disorder for life. So the author can call Joe Griffin a quack if he’s gets some satisfaction from it. It really makes no difference to me, because I know the man’s a lifesaving genius.

The Human Givens approach is new and exciting and about as far from being weird or cultish as you could ever get. There is nothing on the agenda for HG therapists but getting people to feel better as quickly as possible because the knowledge is there to enable that to happen.

As a business model, what could be better than saying that people are really sick and need years of therapy, yet they do precisely the opposite of this.The founders are themselves experienced and effective therapists who have found a way of teaching what they do to others, so that more people can recover from anxiety and trauma.

They are genuine and commited to bringing relief to people suffering from stress in many different ways and they aim to bring actual relief from a lot of long term suffering because they know that this is what good therapy should be doing. They do not pathologise people, they just help people to build on their strengths and calm themselves down into a state of optimum mental health.

blah blah blah, The NHS is a waste of time anyway, Hurra to HG, its a breath of fresh air!!! wake up, its time to weed out the dinosaurs and move on!

I have worked in the area of mental health for over thirty years and been a clinical co-ordinator for many of them. I do have some criticism of HG and yet . . . . this is my first visit to the site and, if this sorry and dreary article, clearly played for cheap points from a sympathetic audience, is the standard of critique you offer, it will be my last.

This article is disgusting. The writer clearly has no knowledge of HG therapy, and simply labelling the pioneers of it as money grabbers is a cheap.

Having suffered debilitating depression and anxiety in the past, I know for a fact the HG approach works. Having spent 6 months in deep depression (made no easier by the NHS waiting list for counselling and trying several anti depressents), just 2 months with a HG counseller I completely turned it around.

It appalls me that the ‘old school’ type therapies are not open to new approaches which clearly have a higher success rate than than CBT or sending the poor patient away from the doctors surgery with boxes of pills which side effects are worse than the problem.

Human Givens is absolutely the right way forward.

The author who has worked with the NHS for 17 years is certainly trapped in a tunnel and thinks the world ends there. if he is a living person he should know that there will always be movement and renewing of the mind to better solutiion to human issues. He will do better in his profession if he read about HG . If he does no do this , then I have no choice that so borrow one of the commentator phrace.
Essentially he sounds more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant

Having experienced depression for years and experiencied every type of help available. The HG approach finally answered the question. I have attended some seminars and it makes sense. I would love to undertake the full qualification to help others but unfortunately cannot afford the courses having given up my destructive job to follow my hearts desire to help others. The HG approach offers common sense and a QUICK solution rather than years of navel gazing and £ down the drain.

As a qualified psychologist I find the claims made by the Human Givens people interesting. I live in Australian and have had some exposure to one or two people from the UK touting this stuff but they are very scant on the details of the supposed evidence. The only thing they have been able to give me are a few light on articles published in their own publications that contain no methodological information or data that could be replicated by an independent body. I have also done a check of the psychotherapy outcome literature from recognised peer reviewed journals and found nothing. In spite of this they hand out brochures that make very bold and wild claims that I found very bizarre. What is also interesting is that they attack psychodynamic therapy as being harmful, when in actuality there is now considerable evidence in peer reviewed journals that it does work. I must admit there is more available evidence for CBT but nothing for human givens. As Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

I have studied the Human Givens approach, having attended all the workshops and seminars that make up the first part of the MA programme they are running via Nottingham Trent University.
They offer the normal Diploma or, Via NTU, three exit points (Post Grad Certificate, PG Diploma or the full MA).
A psychotherapist for 22 years i have a great deal of sympathy and admiration for the approach and believe it to be a wonderful ‘organizing idea’. I found there is a tendency to discuss the positive and negative elements from other therapies, but this is more to explain where the HG approach sits. The only exception is Psychodynamic therapy. This is not looked on kindly purely because it is a longer term therapy, whereas the HG approach is to help clients in the shortest time/number of sessions possible.
Regarding evidence – Many HG therapists now use CORE-M and HG needs questionnaires as standard and evidence is being compiled all the time. The MA programme also allows scope for further evidential work. Organisations who are using the approach are also using evidential gathering at present. So there is expected to be a LOT of evidence soon.
My own feeling is that HG is not perfect, but certainly IS worth a look and will benefit many organisations as well as individuals.

I agree change is coming and there are some entrenched schools of therapy & pharmaceutical companies objecting from ignorance or self interest.
These are only my personal experiences, implementing HG with real clients and is not suggested as evidenced based yet!
Andrea

Having experienced Human Givens therapy myself, and now as a practicising therapist, it is disappointing to see such destructive and self intererested comments about a form of brief therapy that is not only effective but supported by a mass of scientific evidence. It may not yet take the form of ‘Human Givens Research’, but it is substantial, credible and comes from a number of fields such as neuroscience, CBT and interpersonal therapies.

The point that seems to be missed by the original author, from their limited perspective, is that Human Givens is an organising idea, integrating the most effective therapies and interventions to meet an individual client’s needs. It is the opposite of the destructive labelling, and mass produced therapy that is churned out by the schools that peer review articles from a limited perspective. It is about helping people to retake control of their lives as soon as possible. In other words, it’s a practical solution focused approach that helps people who are in danger of being failed by our depersonalised Natiional Health Service.

The evidence to support the Human Givens Approach is being collected and analysed in the form that is required and will show that brief, solution focused therapy is the way forward very soon.

As a psychology post grad I have yet to come across a more integrated and ethical approach to psychological well being than HG. Perhaps those who criticise this approach should study biological and neurological psychology as well as HG before dismissing it. As a HG therapist my main focus is on teaching individuals to be their own therapist/psychologist. I also measure outcomes so clients can track progress and I get feedback on how the client is progressing. It might be an idea to speak to some individuals who have experienced the HG approach before dismissing it.

Interesting comments. I am an experienced counsellor and psychologist and find a number of the ideas of Human Givens interesting and plausible. But the self-promotional style of the book ‘Human Givens’ and its ‘dissing’ of other therapies made it hard going to continue taking them seriously. My conclusion was that they are trying to bring together a number of effective elements of other therapies particularly NLP and CBT and some interesting devleopments from Evolutionary Psychology. If only they would credit their sources more, it’d be easier to trust them. Also the relative lack of academic credentials of Griffen & Tyrell, and the fact that all the journal articles about HG therapy referenced in ‘Human Givens’ and a couple of their other publications that I have read are from Journals they publish themselves. None of which means the therapy doesn’t work. I do like the fact that they are committed to outcome measurement – that in itself probably helps the effectiveness of therapy. I think the ‘common factors’ research that over and over again finds that all therapies are pretty much equal in terms of effectiveness when various confounding variables are controlled for (the ‘Dodo bird verdict’) and that the effectiveness of a therapy / therapist doesn’t correlate with the things we might expect (level of qualification, length of experience etc) says that HG is probably as effective as any other therapy – and that, as with all therapies, it will work for some and not for others. The better the therapist is able to ‘get’ the client in terms of what makes sense to them, and match their therapy to the client, the more likely it will be effective.

Am intrigued by the very emotive response of the defenders of HG – as a previous commenter said – a calm rational discussion would be interesting.

Angela

What an alarmingly bitter, inaccurate and unhelpful piece of writing your article represents. I am not sure it’s even legal to state that someone must be linked to Scientology or anything else because they happen to be called Joe Griffin, (a name that I would think is not that uncommon). Not that I am criticising Scientology for I have no knowledge about that whatsoever.

1. HG was ‘invented’ in the same way that Freud ‘invented’ psychotherapy. I think ‘conceived of’ would be a better term because we are talking about a body of theory and not a new brand of soap powder.

2. HG has a small evidence-base owing to the fact it is about 10 years old and does not have it’s roots in the early 20th Century. About 7 years ago CBT was thought of as being shallow, ineffective and a bit of a gimmick

3. I do not consider an article entitled “is the UK emotionally happy?” to be necessarily of a new-age persuasion. You also need to think of what New Age means to you. If it is a new era, a new wave then what bothers you about a modern approach that is suited to modern times?

4. “Naturally” yes you do have to pay for a HG Diploma. You also have to study for it and give of yourself emotionally and intellectually. You might like to consider that you also pay for degrees, NVQs and all other professional qualifications (CIPD, CIM…) what an earth are you trying to say? People are not ordering these Diplomas on Amazon? They are paying to study for them

5. Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell were of course at the head of Mindfields College. They conceived of HG and therefore naturally they are the ones running the school that trains people in that approach. I went to Exeter University and did a Politics degree. We were lectured by experts in the subject, told to buy their books and to learn and critique their way of thinking. That is what education is… an industry, a learning process… You may have been in mental health nursing for 17 years but where on earth did you do your degree? I hope that your teachers were also those who were experts in their field

6. Regarding the letters one can use after their name having obtained the HG Diploma… one might get bored of people asking what they stand for. I expect people who trained with Relate when they first started where asked what their Diploma meant, of with Polytechnics that turned into unis people were always have to prove their qualifications’s worth.

Your article is misguided, heavily biased towards an insinuation of illigitimacy and totally unresearched. It is libellous towards Mr Joe Griffin and I am surprised no one has tried to sue you.

You talk about research methodology and yet you make unsubstantiated assertions and don’t outline your own methodology… clearly because there isn’t one. What you have here is a hypothesis that you cannot be bothered to prove right or wrong.

Mr Griffin and Mr Tyrrell have worked in this field for years and are psychologists. They are pioneers in an area that attracts criticism from people who get very wrapped up in what mental ill health represents for them when many of them have never experienced it.

I had OCD, anxiety, depression, claustrophobia, agoraphobia and bipolar for 20 years and I am now 32. I intend to train in HG therapy now because having researched schools of psychotherapy for many years and having uncovered some alarming practices from accredited individuals and institutions I am not afraid to try a method that strikes me as being very practical, relevant and economical to society as a whole.

Griffin and Tyrrell have done a lot to uncover the practices of private therapy schools and how they rip off students and keep them in a subculture of therapeutic education when actually the goal is to train the right people up so that they can help our society asap, and alleviate the massive burden that minor mental illness has on the whole country/ world.

I think the industry should be proud of them, whatever they think of HG therapy.

The New Scientist has some interesting views on HGT. I’m sat here thinking about a supposedly groundbreaking work that has no emipirical data to back up its claims and wondering why it seems so familiar. The Interview with Griffin is an eye opener – he mentions encountering conflict from the academic community, but acceptance from people working “at the coal face”. Again, this sounds familiar. Dianetics anyone? The discussion of “molar memories” being an ancient survival mechanism that affects our rational processes, almost identical to Hubbard’s notion of the engram. And in the blurb for the book discussing Molar Memory it’s described as “an immensely inspiring book, ‘An Idea in Practice’, also demonstrates how the human givens organising idea can bring clarity to ethics and diplomacy.” Ethics and diplomacy?

There is a Joe Griffin listed on the excellent Scientology Stats database – not a smoking gun, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same guy. Someone should call RTC!

GHGI? GNDN more like it.

Interesting – I was working in a bookshop at one point and I remember seeing this book and thinking how odd it was that it was basically a self-help book but full of neurosciencey jargon.

Maybe I need to read it and blog about it…

For Darwins’s sake! How much more of the taxpayers hard earned is the NHS going to waste on such idiocy? Please sign my petition on precisely this matter at “petitions.number10.gov.uk/quackery”. Thankyou.

It’s absurd to link Joe Griffin of MindFields College with Scientology because a “Joe Griffin” is listed on a scientology database. If you knew anything about the Human Givens approach or Joe himself this would be self evident – It is simply not him.

Human Givens may be quackery. I don’t know yet, but this article has no substance to help me decide. Essentially it reads more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant amount of money from traditional forms of medicine? Perhaps that is what he is trying to protect?

It hasn’t given me a reason to come back to counterknowledge.com.

Two years ago I marked the 12th anniversary of my first diagnosis of depression. I had been given just about every possible kind of counselling, psychiatric drug and intervention known to science, including being sectioned. I had not made an inch of progress in all that time. I sought a human givens therapist, rather cautious because I had previously read a web site similar to yours. It’s NOT a cult, and it’s NOT a system of belief – far from it. What it does, very effectively, is to get past all the quackery provided for years by the NHS. I have now celebrated a different anniversary – one year without a moment of depression, and not now taking any medication, and this is due entirely to the human givens approach. My success will not have been counted in any scientific evidence-based study, but I do feel very much better, and that’s thanks to the human givens. When I find anybody caning the human givens lot I always begin to look behind the scenes and ask myself where their emotional needs are not being met. Perhaps the answer will give the clue as to why somebody has a vested interest in trying to bad-mouth something about which they clearly know very little.

This seems to be the reaction to any form of new thinking, I understand why as there are con merchants out there, but I doubt many con merchants would go to the levels that the Human Givens Organisation has, and I bet that when Ration Emotive Behavioral Therapy or CBT was thought up and introduced that it was seen as Quackery by those a little fearful of it, and I know that someone will say that these forms of treatment are backed up by scientific study now; however there is some conjecture about the way that CBT’s studies are researched and reported (not saying that this is correct but it is out there). And in terms of getting qualified for Human Givens you have to study with them and pay them to get their qualification. How stupid a statement is that, to be able to practice CBT you have to go and learn with someone associated with CBT, afraid that doesn’t allude to evidence that it is quackery. And looking at the fee’s for the course, it’s about the same as diploma in photography, hardly Kerching is it?

I think what the Human Givens want to do is take elements of other therapies that have had success and look at them in terms of effectiveness to include and use to treat people, that seems a sensible approach to me. As someone who has had a mental health issue I get a little annoyed when therapies seem exclusive of others, no one approach can work for everybody.

I think you do a disservice to anyone suffering to discredit something just because it seems to be new and might upset more intrenched therapies and in the long run drug companies.

Perhaps what would be more beneficial to patients, clients whatever you want to call us is to open a dialogue, share – I’m sure that the Human Givens would be open to that. I cannot tell you how much disservice you do people out there who are suffering with all this bickering between models of therapy, it’s not very adult and something I would like to see less of.

I’m not suggesting that anything should be beyond scrutiny, just don’t think to yourself your doing anyone a service by cynical attacks to something new.

Ultimately from someone who has had a mental health issue what I hope that anyone who is setting themselves up as a therapist would do is be open to what can work. Take their lead from the patient, see the ‘work’ as a team effort.

What worked for me was various elements of relaxation, hypnotherapy and CBT, and discussions with a therapist – all working together for the common goal of elevating pain, which is what should be the intention of anyone offering help. I bet you if you looked into any of those treatments you would find reports of how they haven’t worked, or claims that they can ‘cure all’.

Getting better is hard enough, but when it’s a mind field of conjecture out there without good reason it just makes it all the more difficult. If the psychiatric profession would stop seeing themselves as experts but rather that the patients are, and that we all fight the good fight – maybe the better off we all would be.

What a dreary, ill informed and generally sour article this individual has written. It is devoid of any factual information or explanation of Human Givens, other than to cause mirth and hilarity- I only hope this doesn’t sum up how the person has worked with patients over a 17 year career?

However, I was D E L I G H T E D to know that this person is now a manager in one of the UK’s largest mental health authorities. Perhaps they might spend a little more time trying to help patients find constructive ways forward, rather than promoting a pill popping culture?

I am going to give Human Givens Therapy a try.

I suffer from agoraphobia and I take zoloft and yet no relief.

I am sick of living in fear and the counter auguments have convinced me that HGT may be worth a try.

Thank you gentlemen. God bless you all

I have been researching and looking at Human Givens for 8 years. I have a few criticisms and a few things I agree with. Some of it makes sense like the Human Givens main basis that we have emotional needs and if they are met we can be free of depression and other health problems. Basically you need good friends, and intimate relationship and a challenging job and something you do you are respected for to have your needs met. Not sure I agree with this but it makes sense and is a good selling point to NHS hospitals and more. If you look around at people who are depressed you ususlly find that they are not getting their emotional needs met. But which comes first?

If you are feeling low you probably will not want to go out and get a partner and you will struggle to cope at work. What the Human Givens can help with is breaking the cycle.

Unlike the use of drugs you can’t in reality test such a subjective based approach to health care as it relies on individual experience. If it works for you then good if not then try something else. You will have to search for something that you think may work for you if you think it HG there is a lot of information available for you to make a informed choice – which is what it’s all about

I have spent 2 years having CBT and for me it was a nightmare, and I could not break the cycle that I found myself in. I therefore, decided to try to find another way. The HG spoke about things that I could understand and relate to, and there was someone there to work through the pain with me. I am now trying to find out more, and to become a councelor for others. However, I really do not think that anyone who has not been in a state of depression themselves should make such unhelpful statements without trying the system first.

I first heard about Molar Memories in a Youtube video of Joe Griffin speaking about paraphilias. He claimed these disorders could quickly and easily be cured if the sufferer was guided back to the precise moment in his past where an imprintation took place, setting these lifelong obsessions into motion.

I have had a severe tattoo paraphilia for more than half of my life. Nearly every minute of everyday for over 20 years I have been thinking of tattoos. I’ve tattooed myself hundreds of times with any implement i could find that would do the job. My life has been completely out of control, so Griffin’s concepts were more than interesting to me. I just wanted to know how i could use his information to treat myself, since i couldn’t find a practitioner in the US for this therapy.

When i was four years old, i discovered masturbation. I have always vividly remembered what it was that excited me to have an orgasm that first time. It was a strange thought, a thought of transforming into a different person. I have no clue why this excited me, but it did. I could always recall this experience, but it wasn’t until last month after revisiting the video, that I understood what ultimately took place.

I began to fully process what Griffin was saying, and realized that ALL of my turn ons (there were others like amputation, becoming blind) fell under an umbrella of all things Transformation. They were clearly aligned with my first sexual experience. And just like that, a massive blow was struck to this devastating obsession. I saw tattoos in an entirely new way. They were less meaningful and seemed even silly. The day after this epiphany, the “tattoo loop” was nearly half its usual strength, the first ever reduction in these thoughts.

Now it wasn’t completely gone, but it Was weaker. So I decided to take further action, and went to a tattoo removal clinic. I have been for removal in the past, so this was nothing new. What WAS new however was how i felt after this particular treatment. I no longer found tattoos attractive!!! They instantly meant nothing to me.

And I’m sitting here a month later, still with no desire to tattoo myself, feeling as if i conquered the world. Just remembering the many times I contemplated ending my life because of doctors and literature telling me there was nothing that could be done. That I’d have this ruinous disorder for life. So the author can call Joe Griffin a quack if he’s gets some satisfaction from it. It really makes no difference to me, because I know the man’s a lifesaving genius.

The Human Givens approach is new and exciting and about as far from being weird or cultish as you could ever get. There is nothing on the agenda for HG therapists but getting people to feel better as quickly as possible because the knowledge is there to enable that to happen.

As a business model, what could be better than saying that people are really sick and need years of therapy, yet they do precisely the opposite of this.The founders are themselves experienced and effective therapists who have found a way of teaching what they do to others, so that more people can recover from anxiety and trauma.

They are genuine and commited to bringing relief to people suffering from stress in many different ways and they aim to bring actual relief from a lot of long term suffering because they know that this is what good therapy should be doing. They do not pathologise people, they just help people to build on their strengths and calm themselves down into a state of optimum mental health.

blah blah blah, The NHS is a waste of time anyway, Hurra to HG, its a breath of fresh air!!! wake up, its time to weed out the dinosaurs and move on!

I have worked in the area of mental health for over thirty years and been a clinical co-ordinator for many of them. I do have some criticism of HG and yet . . . . this is my first visit to the site and, if this sorry and dreary article, clearly played for cheap points from a sympathetic audience, is the standard of critique you offer, it will be my last.

This article is disgusting. The writer clearly has no knowledge of HG therapy, and simply labelling the pioneers of it as money grabbers is a cheap.

Having suffered debilitating depression and anxiety in the past, I know for a fact the HG approach works. Having spent 6 months in deep depression (made no easier by the NHS waiting list for counselling and trying several anti depressents), just 2 months with a HG counseller I completely turned it around.

It appalls me that the ‘old school’ type therapies are not open to new approaches which clearly have a higher success rate than than CBT or sending the poor patient away from the doctors surgery with boxes of pills which side effects are worse than the problem.

Human Givens is absolutely the right way forward.

The author who has worked with the NHS for 17 years is certainly trapped in a tunnel and thinks the world ends there. if he is a living person he should know that there will always be movement and renewing of the mind to better solutiion to human issues. He will do better in his profession if he read about HG . If he does no do this , then I have no choice that so borrow one of the commentator phrace.
Essentially he sounds more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant

Having experienced depression for years and experiencied every type of help available. The HG approach finally answered the question. I have attended some seminars and it makes sense. I would love to undertake the full qualification to help others but unfortunately cannot afford the courses having given up my destructive job to follow my hearts desire to help others. The HG approach offers common sense and a QUICK solution rather than years of navel gazing and £ down the drain.

As a qualified psychologist I find the claims made by the Human Givens people interesting. I live in Australian and have had some exposure to one or two people from the UK touting this stuff but they are very scant on the details of the supposed evidence. The only thing they have been able to give me are a few light on articles published in their own publications that contain no methodological information or data that could be replicated by an independent body. I have also done a check of the psychotherapy outcome literature from recognised peer reviewed journals and found nothing. In spite of this they hand out brochures that make very bold and wild claims that I found very bizarre. What is also interesting is that they attack psychodynamic therapy as being harmful, when in actuality there is now considerable evidence in peer reviewed journals that it does work. I must admit there is more available evidence for CBT but nothing for human givens. As Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

I have studied the Human Givens approach, having attended all the workshops and seminars that make up the first part of the MA programme they are running via Nottingham Trent University.
They offer the normal Diploma or, Via NTU, three exit points (Post Grad Certificate, PG Diploma or the full MA).
A psychotherapist for 22 years i have a great deal of sympathy and admiration for the approach and believe it to be a wonderful ‘organizing idea’. I found there is a tendency to discuss the positive and negative elements from other therapies, but this is more to explain where the HG approach sits. The only exception is Psychodynamic therapy. This is not looked on kindly purely because it is a longer term therapy, whereas the HG approach is to help clients in the shortest time/number of sessions possible.
Regarding evidence – Many HG therapists now use CORE-M and HG needs questionnaires as standard and evidence is being compiled all the time. The MA programme also allows scope for further evidential work. Organisations who are using the approach are also using evidential gathering at present. So there is expected to be a LOT of evidence soon.
My own feeling is that HG is not perfect, but certainly IS worth a look and will benefit many organisations as well as individuals.

I agree change is coming and there are some entrenched schools of therapy & pharmaceutical companies objecting from ignorance or self interest.
These are only my personal experiences, implementing HG with real clients and is not suggested as evidenced based yet!
Andrea

Having experienced Human Givens therapy myself, and now as a practicising therapist, it is disappointing to see such destructive and self intererested comments about a form of brief therapy that is not only effective but supported by a mass of scientific evidence. It may not yet take the form of ‘Human Givens Research’, but it is substantial, credible and comes from a number of fields such as neuroscience, CBT and interpersonal therapies.

The point that seems to be missed by the original author, from their limited perspective, is that Human Givens is an organising idea, integrating the most effective therapies and interventions to meet an individual client’s needs. It is the opposite of the destructive labelling, and mass produced therapy that is churned out by the schools that peer review articles from a limited perspective. It is about helping people to retake control of their lives as soon as possible. In other words, it’s a practical solution focused approach that helps people who are in danger of being failed by our depersonalised Natiional Health Service.

The evidence to support the Human Givens Approach is being collected and analysed in the form that is required and will show that brief, solution focused therapy is the way forward very soon.

As a psychology post grad I have yet to come across a more integrated and ethical approach to psychological well being than HG. Perhaps those who criticise this approach should study biological and neurological psychology as well as HG before dismissing it. As a HG therapist my main focus is on teaching individuals to be their own therapist/psychologist. I also measure outcomes so clients can track progress and I get feedback on how the client is progressing. It might be an idea to speak to some individuals who have experienced the HG approach before dismissing it.

Interesting comments. I am an experienced counsellor and psychologist and find a number of the ideas of Human Givens interesting and plausible. But the self-promotional style of the book ‘Human Givens’ and its ‘dissing’ of other therapies made it hard going to continue taking them seriously. My conclusion was that they are trying to bring together a number of effective elements of other therapies particularly NLP and CBT and some interesting devleopments from Evolutionary Psychology. If only they would credit their sources more, it’d be easier to trust them. Also the relative lack of academic credentials of Griffen & Tyrell, and the fact that all the journal articles about HG therapy referenced in ‘Human Givens’ and a couple of their other publications that I have read are from Journals they publish themselves. None of which means the therapy doesn’t work. I do like the fact that they are committed to outcome measurement – that in itself probably helps the effectiveness of therapy. I think the ‘common factors’ research that over and over again finds that all therapies are pretty much equal in terms of effectiveness when various confounding variables are controlled for (the ‘Dodo bird verdict’) and that the effectiveness of a therapy / therapist doesn’t correlate with the things we might expect (level of qualification, length of experience etc) says that HG is probably as effective as any other therapy – and that, as with all therapies, it will work for some and not for others. The better the therapist is able to ‘get’ the client in terms of what makes sense to them, and match their therapy to the client, the more likely it will be effective.

Am intrigued by the very emotive response of the defenders of HG – as a previous commenter said – a calm rational discussion would be interesting.

Angela

What an alarmingly bitter, inaccurate and unhelpful piece of writing your article represents. I am not sure it’s even legal to state that someone must be linked to Scientology or anything else because they happen to be called Joe Griffin, (a name that I would think is not that uncommon). Not that I am criticising Scientology for I have no knowledge about that whatsoever.

1. HG was ‘invented’ in the same way that Freud ‘invented’ psychotherapy. I think ‘conceived of’ would be a better term because we are talking about a body of theory and not a new brand of soap powder.

2. HG has a small evidence-base owing to the fact it is about 10 years old and does not have it’s roots in the early 20th Century. About 7 years ago CBT was thought of as being shallow, ineffective and a bit of a gimmick

3. I do not consider an article entitled “is the UK emotionally happy?” to be necessarily of a new-age persuasion. You also need to think of what New Age means to you. If it is a new era, a new wave then what bothers you about a modern approach that is suited to modern times?

4. “Naturally” yes you do have to pay for a HG Diploma. You also have to study for it and give of yourself emotionally and intellectually. You might like to consider that you also pay for degrees, NVQs and all other professional qualifications (CIPD, CIM…) what an earth are you trying to say? People are not ordering these Diplomas on Amazon? They are paying to study for them

5. Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell were of course at the head of Mindfields College. They conceived of HG and therefore naturally they are the ones running the school that trains people in that approach. I went to Exeter University and did a Politics degree. We were lectured by experts in the subject, told to buy their books and to learn and critique their way of thinking. That is what education is… an industry, a learning process… You may have been in mental health nursing for 17 years but where on earth did you do your degree? I hope that your teachers were also those who were experts in their field

6. Regarding the letters one can use after their name having obtained the HG Diploma… one might get bored of people asking what they stand for. I expect people who trained with Relate when they first started where asked what their Diploma meant, of with Polytechnics that turned into unis people were always have to prove their qualifications’s worth.

Your article is misguided, heavily biased towards an insinuation of illigitimacy and totally unresearched. It is libellous towards Mr Joe Griffin and I am surprised no one has tried to sue you.

You talk about research methodology and yet you make unsubstantiated assertions and don’t outline your own methodology… clearly because there isn’t one. What you have here is a hypothesis that you cannot be bothered to prove right or wrong.

Mr Griffin and Mr Tyrrell have worked in this field for years and are psychologists. They are pioneers in an area that attracts criticism from people who get very wrapped up in what mental ill health represents for them when many of them have never experienced it.

I had OCD, anxiety, depression, claustrophobia, agoraphobia and bipolar for 20 years and I am now 32. I intend to train in HG therapy now because having researched schools of psychotherapy for many years and having uncovered some alarming practices from accredited individuals and institutions I am not afraid to try a method that strikes me as being very practical, relevant and economical to society as a whole.

Griffin and Tyrrell have done a lot to uncover the practices of private therapy schools and how they rip off students and keep them in a subculture of therapeutic education when actually the goal is to train the right people up so that they can help our society asap, and alleviate the massive burden that minor mental illness has on the whole country/ world.

I think the industry should be proud of them, whatever they think of HG therapy.

Interestingly, the biggest problem I have with the first result described isn’t that people might be lying in self-report studies (although that’s obviously also a big problem for studies of this type).

The biggest problem I have is that there are so obviously a LARGE number of other possible causal interpretations to the result.

Let’s suppose that it’s true that female orgasm covaries with partner’s income. Without knowing better, I would bet money that this isn’t longitudinal covariance or repeated-sampling covariance…. which means that we’re not comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is low with the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is high; instead, we’re comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with low-income Male #2 with the orgasm of Female #3 with high-income Male #4.

Let’s think through some of the many, many covariants that could influence this. Higher income males might be more well-mannered and therefore more considerate; higher income males might be more educated and have better communication skills; women who are more sexually-driven might be more turned on by physical appearance, and higher-income males may also be better-groomed. Women who have a greater tendency to have orgasms in general might be better in bed, and wherefore might be better able to attract and keep high-income mates.

And so on, and so on. Some of these may seem ridiculous. But when pitting them against “women have and IN-BORN, EVOLVED tendency to have better orgasms when their partners have a higher salary” it may nonetheless warrant further investigation.

“evolutionary adaptation” , “women’s behaviour is driven by ruthless pursuit of their gene’s best chance of survival”.
Sorry,but when I took ‘O’ level biology (yeah,yeah … showing my age) I’m sure that it was the male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes!

“male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes”

Womans orgasm increases the chance for impergnation.

Also, it increases the chance of repeated sexual activity.

Interestingly, the biggest problem I have with the first result described isn’t that people might be lying in self-report studies (although that’s obviously also a big problem for studies of this type).

The biggest problem I have is that there are so obviously a LARGE number of other possible causal interpretations to the result.

Let’s suppose that it’s true that female orgasm covaries with partner’s income. Without knowing better, I would bet money that this isn’t longitudinal covariance or repeated-sampling covariance…. which means that we’re not comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is low with the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is high; instead, we’re comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with low-income Male #2 with the orgasm of Female #3 with high-income Male #4.

Let’s think through some of the many, many covariants that could influence this. Higher income males might be more well-mannered and therefore more considerate; higher income males might be more educated and have better communication skills; women who are more sexually-driven might be more turned on by physical appearance, and higher-income males may also be better-groomed. Women who have a greater tendency to have orgasms in general might be better in bed, and wherefore might be better able to attract and keep high-income mates.

And so on, and so on. Some of these may seem ridiculous. But when pitting them against “women have and IN-BORN, EVOLVED tendency to have better orgasms when their partners have a higher salary” it may nonetheless warrant further investigation.

“evolutionary adaptation” , “women’s behaviour is driven by ruthless pursuit of their gene’s best chance of survival”.
Sorry,but when I took ‘O’ level biology (yeah,yeah … showing my age) I’m sure that it was the male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes!

“male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes”

Womans orgasm increases the chance for impergnation.

Also, it increases the chance of repeated sexual activity.