I thought the guidance excluded chronic back pain? A minor detail, I know…

The BBC article mentions a choice of 3 complementary therapies. If it was down to excercise or acupuncture, I wonder what most people will go for?
Surely the implication that it is a placebo would make the NHS think twice? Unless they are happily promoting bogus treatments these days (ahem)

Re the Beacon. You are right, the guidance doesn’t mention ‘chronic’ back pain (so I’ve amended the above article), but it does talk about ‘persistent back pain’.

I wonder how many of the sceptics have actually tried acupuncture from a reputable practitioner.

Having tried acupuncture as a last resort for back pain, for which the NHS could only advise radical surgery, I found it to be both effective and lasting in its effects.

If that were down to a placebo effect, then I’d imagine that the anti-inflammatories and painkillers previously prescribed by my doctor – and which I fully expected to resolve the problem – would have worked just as well. They didn’t.

As for proven efficacy – if those of us who have tried acupuncture and found it to work are to be written off as deluded beneficiaries of a placebo effect, then trty the copious body of research available on the World Health Organisation website.

It works, and has been proven to work, when administered by well-trained professionals, as licensed by the British Acupuncture Council.

Did you know that 95% of percentages used in 95% of “studies, reports, [email protected] or whatever this Will Heaven has claimed to have conducted, are figures pulled out of the air.
What are you an expert on Mr Heaven? apart from radical spin journalism see following quote (reported by Counterknowledge.com and the BMJ”Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.” In other words, scientists do not know whether acupuncture works like a placebo, or if it has a real biological effect. I ask why are you spinning acupuncture in this way. Do you perhaps have any connections to the Drug industry which is squirming due to the fact that Drug free remedies are increasing in popularity? If this is your main job then well done. i’d love to sit at a pc all typing rubbish and making it sound official with the usual newspaper dribble, The Catchy headline, All the bullet points kept negative to hit home the message, the odd figure to make it sound official and a sceptical negative anecdotial conclusion. Its a rubbish article but whats more worrying is that people may read it as fact and tell others it as fact. i’ll be keeing my eye out for your articles.

As you all know acupuncture has been around of thousands of years, if there were nothing to it don’t you think it would have gone away by now? You cannot deny the undeniable benefits of natural forms of healthcare.

That acupuncture is effective in blocking out pain is beyond dispute. People have surgery with acupuncture alone. The real issue is not whether acupuncture is effective in blocking pain but whether the relief is persistent.

Acupuncture does work i should know i have ankylosing spondylitis and have ONLY become pain free because of Acupuncture, i now only need a few repeat treatments when the pain comes back and the pain that does come back is minimal compared to the pain i used to get.
I would have loved Acupuncture to be on the NHS instead of paying out a small fortune, Acupuncture does help allot of ailments as well as back pain.
You Mr Heaven have no idea i presume of what it is like to have your whole body in pain, so much so you can`t get out of bed by yourself because your spine muscles have weakened and be in constant pain everyday and then oneday i visited an acupuncturist after my mam got cured of sciatica through Acupuncture and after allot of treatment i am ALLOT better and more often than not either pain free or nearly pain free, all because of Acupuncture.

Paul, I think the last one locked the doors and shut off the lights a couple of months ago.
All thats left here is tumbleweed and and an exchange of invective over the holocaust and zionism.
I assume the site staff have all moved on.

Acupuncture works, and it has done so for hundred of years. It also saved me from spending the rest of my life in a wheelchair. Could have gone for a expensive and ridiculously dangerous operation I guess….

Acupuncture has been known in China for ages, my mom introduced me to acupunture and i am since been amazed how it can reduce my migraine.

What a joke. Acupuncture works, it has for thousands of years. It saved me when I had major back issues, when NHS simply send me home with painkillers usually given to heroin addicts. And that was it.
To dare stating that its beneficial effects are unclear or that this a placebo is state of the art smug ignorance.
LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I regard something truly interesting about your weblog so I bookmarked .

I know this is actually boring and you are skipping to the next comment, but I simply wanted to throw a big thanks! We really came across this on yahoo, and im happy I did. I’ll definitely be coming back…

Reading some of the comments about this blog, Id need to say I agree with the majority. Only a and an very interesting post to read on this nice website. Almost never write some feedback only now i couldnt i possibly could not resist

I thought the guidance excluded chronic back pain? A minor detail, I know…

The BBC article mentions a choice of 3 complementary therapies. If it was down to excercise or acupuncture, I wonder what most people will go for?
Surely the implication that it is a placebo would make the NHS think twice? Unless they are happily promoting bogus treatments these days (ahem)

Re the Beacon. You are right, the guidance doesn’t mention ‘chronic’ back pain (so I’ve amended the above article), but it does talk about ‘persistent back pain’.

I wonder how many of the sceptics have actually tried acupuncture from a reputable practitioner.

Having tried acupuncture as a last resort for back pain, for which the NHS could only advise radical surgery, I found it to be both effective and lasting in its effects.

If that were down to a placebo effect, then I’d imagine that the anti-inflammatories and painkillers previously prescribed by my doctor – and which I fully expected to resolve the problem – would have worked just as well. They didn’t.

As for proven efficacy – if those of us who have tried acupuncture and found it to work are to be written off as deluded beneficiaries of a placebo effect, then trty the copious body of research available on the World Health Organisation website.

It works, and has been proven to work, when administered by well-trained professionals, as licensed by the British Acupuncture Council.

Did you know that 95% of percentages used in 95% of “studies, reports, [email protected] or whatever this Will Heaven has claimed to have conducted, are figures pulled out of the air.
What are you an expert on Mr Heaven? apart from radical spin journalism see following quote (reported by Counterknowledge.com and the BMJ”Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.” In other words, scientists do not know whether acupuncture works like a placebo, or if it has a real biological effect. I ask why are you spinning acupuncture in this way. Do you perhaps have any connections to the Drug industry which is squirming due to the fact that Drug free remedies are increasing in popularity? If this is your main job then well done. i’d love to sit at a pc all typing rubbish and making it sound official with the usual newspaper dribble, The Catchy headline, All the bullet points kept negative to hit home the message, the odd figure to make it sound official and a sceptical negative anecdotial conclusion. Its a rubbish article but whats more worrying is that people may read it as fact and tell others it as fact. i’ll be keeing my eye out for your articles.

As you all know acupuncture has been around of thousands of years, if there were nothing to it don’t you think it would have gone away by now? You cannot deny the undeniable benefits of natural forms of healthcare.

That acupuncture is effective in blocking out pain is beyond dispute. People have surgery with acupuncture alone. The real issue is not whether acupuncture is effective in blocking pain but whether the relief is persistent.

Acupuncture does work i should know i have ankylosing spondylitis and have ONLY become pain free because of Acupuncture, i now only need a few repeat treatments when the pain comes back and the pain that does come back is minimal compared to the pain i used to get.
I would have loved Acupuncture to be on the NHS instead of paying out a small fortune, Acupuncture does help allot of ailments as well as back pain.
You Mr Heaven have no idea i presume of what it is like to have your whole body in pain, so much so you can`t get out of bed by yourself because your spine muscles have weakened and be in constant pain everyday and then oneday i visited an acupuncturist after my mam got cured of sciatica through Acupuncture and after allot of treatment i am ALLOT better and more often than not either pain free or nearly pain free, all because of Acupuncture.

Paul, I think the last one locked the doors and shut off the lights a couple of months ago.
All thats left here is tumbleweed and and an exchange of invective over the holocaust and zionism.
I assume the site staff have all moved on.

Acupuncture works, and it has done so for hundred of years. It also saved me from spending the rest of my life in a wheelchair. Could have gone for a expensive and ridiculously dangerous operation I guess….

Acupuncture has been known in China for ages, my mom introduced me to acupunture and i am since been amazed how it can reduce my migraine.

What a joke. Acupuncture works, it has for thousands of years. It saved me when I had major back issues, when NHS simply send me home with painkillers usually given to heroin addicts. And that was it.
To dare stating that its beneficial effects are unclear or that this a placebo is state of the art smug ignorance.
LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I regard something truly interesting about your weblog so I bookmarked .

I know this is actually boring and you are skipping to the next comment, but I simply wanted to throw a big thanks! We really came across this on yahoo, and im happy I did. I’ll definitely be coming back…

Reading some of the comments about this blog, Id need to say I agree with the majority. Only a and an very interesting post to read on this nice website. Almost never write some feedback only now i couldnt i possibly could not resist

that’s what you call gibberish

I can’t even begin to understand…

If you were ever unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, where exactly would you start?

Sounds like some weapons grade “Wishful thinking= results” BS

From nutjob’s website, linked in my name.
“The Resonance Project Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to the unification of all sciences and philosophies emerging from a complete and applied view of the physics underlying the wheelworks of nature.”

Hoooo boy, we hit gold.

“Director of Research Nassim Haramein and scientists at the Resonance Project Foundation have found a new solution to Einstein’s field equations which incorporates torque and Coriolis effects. Furthermore, calculations were rendered to describe the collective and coherent behavior of the plasma dynamics of ergospheres orbiting the event horizons of black holes demanding a highly structured polarized vacuum, resulting in an alternative view of black holes where the exterior white hole portion surrounds the interior black hole singularity.”

Nothing in a Brief History of Time made my head hurt as much as that.

Anyone who thinks reality is subjective has never walked into a patio door they were certain was open.

“If you were ever unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, where exactly would you start?”

Where would you start? If you were unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, the only thing that would be going through your mind is “where did this start and how the feck do I finish it??”

And I thought vacuums were just for cleaning the house! I never knew they ruled the universe.

Physics update on the universe;

Vacuum (nothingness) actually means Universe (everythingness).

Hurrah for self contradiction. This is logic’s retarded twin brother. We only let him out on sundays.

Is this person high?

Daryl, his synchronicity has just gone through the roof.

He just sounds like some guy at a Dead Show who is trying to explain why he’s licking the light bulbs in, what he perceives to be, a rational way.

The real rational answer would be that he’s on acid. But he thinks that’s only “opening up his mind, man”….

Daryl, lol… I asked myself that very same question. But at least now we know that it ALL started inside a large Dyson and then, ‘hey man’….the whole thing went through the roof.

It makes sense in it’s own way.

Sounds like BS to me.

If an honest individual sends TRUE information into the vacuum to benetit everyone, but a dishonest corporation spreads conflicting FALSE information via mainstream media to profit itself, the result is likely to be confusion, with false information having the upper hand. An apt analogy might be; A baby submerged in dirty bathwater. Kind of like this website.

Some other posterior gems from Haramein:
“Wow, the universe is just a bunch of dots!”
“Reality is an illusion” (appropriated from Buddha, of course)

“Yeah again, in the context of my theory synchronicity starts to make sense…”

So in other words, in the context of his theory, his theory makes sense… to him… for me on the other hand it is still a bit of a mystery.

So well done to Mr Haramein, he’s created an entirely unnecessary counterpart to the theory of the interplay of cause and effect, except that this one is for Solipsists.

McM. Good post. I like it. One wonders what the real agenda is. Or to put it in my own language who is ringing the bell? Might I also ask if Mr Haramein is on acid at all?

Why is there no substance to the comments? You all accuse Haramein of lack of substance, but your attacks are vapor.

One question – and only one – should dominate:

“Nassim, have your relativity-equation solutions been reviewed by the physics community?”

Surely peer-review is the only relevant question to ask?

Wow. 16 responses and only one voice of reason. I thought this was meant to be a truth forum?

I agree Paul, if he is what he claims to be, ie: a physicist, then his equations should be able to stand up to peer review. From what little I have read of Nassim and the Resonance Project it seems to be a legitimate effort to look at zero point and field equations from a different angle.

Assuming that this guy is a quack due to the subject matter of his talk is beside the point.

WOW…whilst this guy may or may not be a ‘nutjob’ posts bar two seem to be a lot worse…talk about lunatics taking over the page, no one got anything intelligent to add?
very dissapointed with this site

If Einstein had come out and said, along with his theories, “I also like to hook up two escorts and fondle their boobs with my head. It makes me feel like I’m on the seventh planet of the divine”… would we have been reluctant to accept his theories? Eh, maybe.

Ok, this guy’s not Einstein but if you look up his stuff, some of it’s actually science, believe it or not. The problem here is that it’s often mixed up and intertwined with spiritual references that are, well, hard to incorporate in science.

Crazy? Yes. (Geniuses are usually crazy, anyway) Quack? Maybe, but not entirely. There’s a lot of good sense in his gravity field theories which caught my interest and could unlock a lot of things we can barely come close to explain… spin, for example.

You can listen to the guy’s ramblings but the science is hard to filter out sometimes when he goes too deep unto difficult to accept spiritual concepts.

This is just a circular argument wrapped up in 2 and a half minutes of babble

Where can i get one of those vacuums?

@quickredfox just go with a Dyson man! might be more expensive than the dvd set but at least you’ll get something out of it

He has a four CD set of explanation of his theory called “Crossing The Event Horizon.” His explanation of the nature of All makes as much sense and the other physicists explanations using terms like strong force, week force, gluons, dark matter etc. JEEZZ ! Much more sense in fact. He actually seems to make physics and quantum physics seem compatible.

A definite rush to judgment going on in this forum.

A very worthwhile thing to consider I perceive. Maybe it can be found at libraries.

What about all those times people need lifeboats or mine rescuers or firemen to turn up, and they don’t? I suppose these people can’t refute Mr Haramein, because they’re dead…

http://theresonanceproject.org/research.html

he wrote a paper called “The Schwarzschild Proton”. It won Best paper award at the “9th International Conference CASYS’09 (Computing Anticipatory Systems)” and above is a link which gives further information.

You can cross check the references, you can cross check all 13 panelists, you can cross check everything he says regarding this paper.

or you could read the paper, follow the math, and take some time to try and understand what he’s saying. its not that complicated (its does require patience and a decent understanding of math)

Until you have made the effort to follow up on the TECHNICAL and SCIENTIFIC papers he has written, a number of them with E.A. Rauscher (theres a name to look up) your opinions of him are as meaningless.

One must know what they’re talking about before they talk about it.

I’m not saying what Nassim is saying is wholesale right, but i have made the effort to look into it, and he offers alot more information on why HE is right and why all of you who insult him on this “truth” forum are some combination of ignorant and lazy.

Many of the present assumptions in the field of theoretical physics have been proven wrong time and time again by actual observed cosmological events i.e shoemaker levy, comet impactors,black hole radio jets etc. The theoretical physicists however seem to refuse to believe the evidence presented before their very eyes and continue to attempt to bash that square peg into the proverbial round hole with patently contradictory explanations that i’m sure don’t make sense even to them. They seem to have forgotten that scientific knowledge is always a work in progress and are becoming entrenched in their views. The gravitational universe theory is taking knocks from all angles but many of the theorists continue to expound their dogmas. For anyone interested check out the long suppressed “Electrical universe” theories out there. Does a much better job of explaining and more importantly accurately predicting cosmological phenomena
Peace

How does one check out EA Rauscher? I could find no reference to her on the net or as a person connected to Berkeley.

I find NH’s take on physics fascinating. His grasp of history is less convincing as he confuses things and makes sensationalist claims.

What makes me a bit sceptical is that his organisation might be non-profit making but it is keen on raising money. It would be more credible if it were profit-making and actually capable of applying his leading-edge physics in a commercial kind of way. The market place is even more effective in testing the truth than peer review.

We all want to know how the Egyptians et al moved the giant blocks and why can’t their manipulation of energy be replicated now? Now, as we face the challenges of climate change/ fossil fuel issues/ polluiton etc, we need physicists to work out what the ancients knew – and stop wasting time on Big Bang and string theory.

There is certainly no evidence of a four thousand year old Large Hadron Collider anywhere on the Nile – so how did they do it? And why can’t NH tell us?

This site should be called Counterproductive, no matter how ludricrous this man’s claims – the person who posted this possibly out of context has provided no useful COUNTERKNOWLEDE with this clip. So are we assuming the site agrees with this persons theories? Most of the small minded responses here show evolved the people are who use this site. If it were the middleages you would be burning him at the stake…. apologies to the few that have actually made an effort to check this guy out, I’m of to do the same, not that I believe him but I will attempt to make an educated decision using critical thinking, not something that is popular on this site…

There is no doubt that winning an award at the 9th International Conference on Computing Anticipatory Systems CASYS’09 (organised by the sweetly named Belgian university of Liege mathematics institute CHAOS : Centre for Hyperincursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems) gives Mr Haramein a lot of credibility.

I sat through all 45 youtube videos of his presentation from 2008 and the physics made a lot of sense to me. It pays to be more open-minded. After all, Einstein, the universally recognised genius of the C20th, did not like quantum physics.
Even Richard Dawkins, the ulitmate in rational, finds quantum physics “mysterious”. What is rational about the principle of ‘non-locality’?

I still have a concern that NH’s comments on non-physics subjects which lack the accuracy that he applies to physics would lead gullible people down the wrong path. More pseudo history than pseudo science… but still pseudo

Ignorance is only skin deep, but stupidity goes to the bone. I am very famliar with Mr. Haramein’s good work. Anyone who would cast stones at this man and other brilliant, dedicated minds like his is probably just too lazy or stupid to matter anyway..so I say..eat this bitches!

S. Fuelling, R. Bruch, G. Liu, M. Bailey, E. A. Rauscher, E. Tr?bert and P. H. Heckmann, ?Absolute State Selective Cross Sections for Ionization-Excitation of Helium in e-+He, H++He, H2++He and H3++He Collisions,? Z. Phys. D 21, (1991) 309.

this is a paper i found reference to on this personal information page for Dr. Stephen Fueling at the University of Nevada,
http://www.physics.unr.edu/FacFuelling.html

E.A rausher is mentioned. true, she is hard to find on the internet. dont forget tho, that the internet doesnt have everybody on it. you cant find this publication on google, but if you have access to a college univistity database, with programs like pubmed and what not, you may be able to find it there.

happy hunting

Elizabeth Rauscher: ZoomInfo Business People Information
Lots of info on this link.
Liz Roberts

It is easy to be critical and a skeptic. It takes time to listen and understand. Take the time to listen to his lectures on the geometric structure of the vacuum and just maybe it’s not so crazy. I’m thinking this man may very well have found some real answers.

His theory could very well bridge hard science into noetic science. What I would question is how or what presented itself to him to postulate that vacuum has structure, let alone a crystaline one. Is the shape more of a fractal nature or more rigid like the physical ones we can tangibly hold?

I just reviewed his Schwarzschild Proton paper and couldn’t find anything wrong in there. Everything he states is correct. All his calculations are correct. Units are correct. The best part in this whole paper is that it’s basically so simple that he only needs to reference one text book in his references. The main reason I believe his theories is that I have my own theory of the universe and it basically comes to the same conclusions as Nassim, that black holes exist at different scales including the quantum scale and beyond. Also, space-time has fractal nature (crystalline fractal nature). He calls it the fractoholographic universe which is the perfect name for this phenomenonl. FractalWoman

Regarding comments about H’s lack of credibility in history: In the video he points out that “no one who says the ‘Egyptians didn’t build the pyramids’ will ever get a Ph.D. in history… and yet we have absolutely no proof that they did…. no hieroglyphs talking about it, no corroboration, and no way for us to do it with current technology.” That is a good argument, and I wonder, which “history” lacks credibility?

People pay to see 13 hour talks with this joker. He sells himself as having all kinds of new insights into physics, but he’s a liar and a fraud. It’s sickening, and sad to see the gullibility of people who are taken in by it. The truth is so much richer than the garbage people like this make up.

(FractalWoman: Look again at his “Schwarzchild Proton” paper – it’s completely circular, as well as nonsensical. He uses the gravitation equation to suggest that a proton weighs a billion tons because that’s what it would have to weigh for it to be a strongly gravitationally bound object, and then uses the same equations to conclude that nuclei are held together by gravity, because really they weigh a billion tons each. And that’s his derivation of the strong nuclear force.)
(If that’s not what you read in his paper, I’d be interested to know what you think he was saying.)

for anyone to fully watch n.h.’s speach, and try to think of a cute little saying that all of the other inbred rednecks can relate with is the exact ignorance that led the world away from nature, and natures way of being…. fuck ignorance, kill politically

I just love a good incoherent run on sentence that complains about someone else’s ignorance. Nothing elucidates a person’s intelligence level like an inept attempt to brag about how smart they are.

A comprehensive debunking of this guy (and fractalwoman) can be found here: http://www.sciencefile.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1251881447/0

The award that is touted about him was some ‘best of conference’ award given in a conference requiring no peer review and in no way affiliated with the university (other than hire of the room).

Unfortunately he’s a hippy crank.

Well…I lasted through 20 minutes of his 4 hr youtube while surfing for additional info on this guy. No real peer reviews, and Wiki punted his entry. Hmmm.

I have problems with infinities and singularities. Nassim doesn’t.

I recently inhaled a couple of well written books. If you want get a solid understanding of what the real brains are focusing on today then try:
In Search of the Multiverse, John Gribbin. ISBN 978-1-846-14113-3
Quantum Enigma, Bruce Rosenblum & Fred Kuttner. ISBN 978-0-19-534250-5
The last book is a bit controversial as it is linking consciousness with quantum physics. Read it anyways as they do an excellent job of describing the world around us using real science. WIth both books you will also find answers that mostly eliminate the need for singularities and infinities.

BTW Thanks for the debunk link zeroone

One small comment regarding dimensions, that I have always found to be a though provoking analogy.

Clearly we exist in 4D as 3D objects, but lets step back a bit and look at dimensions; but not as Nassim describes in his school lesson (this was his first mistake though useful for the manipulation of his audience) Anyways… The shadow of a 3D object is clearly 2D. No depth but not imaginary or non-existent. So the shadow of this 2D object would be 1D or a line (no matter how close you get it never gets thicker. A 1D object’s shadow would be a point, or singularity, or 0D. OK so that is the framework. So then 3D is the shadow of an object moving through spacetime (4D). You see where this is going?

Anyhoo, that’s my 2 qubits. (or 4 bits if you prefer

You gotta kidding me. You want rational criticism of this person?

He’s talking about a SENTIENT VACCUUM. Prima facie nonsense that means duck squat. It’s just a bunch of catch phrases arranged in a manner meant to sound “deep.”

This person absolutely deserves to be flamed, because everything he says doesn’t make any sense, it’s just a bunch of buzz words put together into a patois.

who are all those phd’s he has listed working for him on his site, are they fake too. he can barely pronounce english words sometimes. that long youtube video where he stated that his footage from NASA showed a ginormous comet swinging past earth and for some unknown reason we were spared, and then admits the video is an animation – but people pay for this stuff. i’m confused as to why so many people like him are goating the public like ministers to give up their money. there are obviously changes taking place in our world but these guys … i honestly believe he and other alternative media are govt disinfo agents sent to blind and slide people into bottomless rabbit holes and confuse people. click my name for a real site.

Scott Mercer (above) hits the nail on the head! Nassim is usually talking to those who know nothing about physics, which will be most of his audience, and like Richard Hoagland goes on about issues that are not completely understood in his own way as if he has found the understanding of it. The illusion of knowledge is a powerful thing.

Okay, he may sound a little stoned and the terminology is skewed a bit but the larger idea behind what he says does actually make sense. It is not totally unlike giving our attention to something we want to learn, the more attention we give to it, the more we learn, perhaps first through memorization, but then we begin to see patterns and links that create a greater understanding. We can now interact more through this knowledge/skills with the greater body – which Nassim refers to as the vacuum – but more down to earth, it may be a group of physicists working in quantum mechanics. Naturally, armed with knowledge of the language of physics one can give and receive more readily due to the hyper-awareness and understanding of that environment. Anywhere we place our awareness I think we will tend to see such occurrences partially due to our increased awareness, and perhaps co-create occurrences relative to interactive participation at some level..We cannot become aware of anything without creating change – that may be minimal or set off a chain reaction of related events (whether or not we identify them as related) that would have otherwise not occurred and that, in essence, establishes a communication network between two or more entities that respond to each other in some unique manner. I say ‘unique’ to
identify that the subsequent series of events is identified with the parent event and would have otherwise not occurred.

Wow, this guy is a real nutjob and has no clue. Not sure why this was posted? I would expect something like this from a guy I give spare change to.

that’s what you call gibberish

I can’t even begin to understand…

If you were ever unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, where exactly would you start?

Sounds like some weapons grade “Wishful thinking= results” BS

From nutjob’s website, linked in my name.
“The Resonance Project Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to the unification of all sciences and philosophies emerging from a complete and applied view of the physics underlying the wheelworks of nature.”

Hoooo boy, we hit gold.

“Director of Research Nassim Haramein and scientists at the Resonance Project Foundation have found a new solution to Einstein’s field equations which incorporates torque and Coriolis effects. Furthermore, calculations were rendered to describe the collective and coherent behavior of the plasma dynamics of ergospheres orbiting the event horizons of black holes demanding a highly structured polarized vacuum, resulting in an alternative view of black holes where the exterior white hole portion surrounds the interior black hole singularity.”

Nothing in a Brief History of Time made my head hurt as much as that.

Anyone who thinks reality is subjective has never walked into a patio door they were certain was open.

“If you were ever unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, where exactly would you start?”

Where would you start? If you were unfortunate enough to become involved in a discussion with this guy, the only thing that would be going through your mind is “where did this start and how the feck do I finish it??”

And I thought vacuums were just for cleaning the house! I never knew they ruled the universe.

Physics update on the universe;

Vacuum (nothingness) actually means Universe (everythingness).

Hurrah for self contradiction. This is logic’s retarded twin brother. We only let him out on sundays.

Is this person high?

Daryl, his synchronicity has just gone through the roof.

He just sounds like some guy at a Dead Show who is trying to explain why he’s licking the light bulbs in, what he perceives to be, a rational way.

The real rational answer would be that he’s on acid. But he thinks that’s only “opening up his mind, man”….

Daryl, lol… I asked myself that very same question. But at least now we know that it ALL started inside a large Dyson and then, ‘hey man’….the whole thing went through the roof.

It makes sense in it’s own way.

Sounds like BS to me.

If an honest individual sends TRUE information into the vacuum to benetit everyone, but a dishonest corporation spreads conflicting FALSE information via mainstream media to profit itself, the result is likely to be confusion, with false information having the upper hand. An apt analogy might be; A baby submerged in dirty bathwater. Kind of like this website.

Some other posterior gems from Haramein:
“Wow, the universe is just a bunch of dots!”
“Reality is an illusion” (appropriated from Buddha, of course)

“Yeah again, in the context of my theory synchronicity starts to make sense…”

So in other words, in the context of his theory, his theory makes sense… to him… for me on the other hand it is still a bit of a mystery.

So well done to Mr Haramein, he’s created an entirely unnecessary counterpart to the theory of the interplay of cause and effect, except that this one is for Solipsists.

McM. Good post. I like it. One wonders what the real agenda is. Or to put it in my own language who is ringing the bell? Might I also ask if Mr Haramein is on acid at all?

Why is there no substance to the comments? You all accuse Haramein of lack of substance, but your attacks are vapor.

One question – and only one – should dominate:

“Nassim, have your relativity-equation solutions been reviewed by the physics community?”

Surely peer-review is the only relevant question to ask?

Wow. 16 responses and only one voice of reason. I thought this was meant to be a truth forum?

I agree Paul, if he is what he claims to be, ie: a physicist, then his equations should be able to stand up to peer review. From what little I have read of Nassim and the Resonance Project it seems to be a legitimate effort to look at zero point and field equations from a different angle.

Assuming that this guy is a quack due to the subject matter of his talk is beside the point.

WOW…whilst this guy may or may not be a ‘nutjob’ posts bar two seem to be a lot worse…talk about lunatics taking over the page, no one got anything intelligent to add?
very dissapointed with this site

If Einstein had come out and said, along with his theories, “I also like to hook up two escorts and fondle their boobs with my head. It makes me feel like I’m on the seventh planet of the divine”… would we have been reluctant to accept his theories? Eh, maybe.

Ok, this guy’s not Einstein but if you look up his stuff, some of it’s actually science, believe it or not. The problem here is that it’s often mixed up and intertwined with spiritual references that are, well, hard to incorporate in science.

Crazy? Yes. (Geniuses are usually crazy, anyway) Quack? Maybe, but not entirely. There’s a lot of good sense in his gravity field theories which caught my interest and could unlock a lot of things we can barely come close to explain… spin, for example.

You can listen to the guy’s ramblings but the science is hard to filter out sometimes when he goes too deep unto difficult to accept spiritual concepts.

This is just a circular argument wrapped up in 2 and a half minutes of babble

Where can i get one of those vacuums?

@quickredfox just go with a Dyson man! might be more expensive than the dvd set but at least you’ll get something out of it

He has a four CD set of explanation of his theory called “Crossing The Event Horizon.” His explanation of the nature of All makes as much sense and the other physicists explanations using terms like strong force, week force, gluons, dark matter etc. JEEZZ ! Much more sense in fact. He actually seems to make physics and quantum physics seem compatible.

A definite rush to judgment going on in this forum.

A very worthwhile thing to consider I perceive. Maybe it can be found at libraries.

What about all those times people need lifeboats or mine rescuers or firemen to turn up, and they don’t? I suppose these people can’t refute Mr Haramein, because they’re dead…

http://theresonanceproject.org/research.html

he wrote a paper called “The Schwarzschild Proton”. It won Best paper award at the “9th International Conference CASYS’09 (Computing Anticipatory Systems)” and above is a link which gives further information.

You can cross check the references, you can cross check all 13 panelists, you can cross check everything he says regarding this paper.

or you could read the paper, follow the math, and take some time to try and understand what he’s saying. its not that complicated (its does require patience and a decent understanding of math)

Until you have made the effort to follow up on the TECHNICAL and SCIENTIFIC papers he has written, a number of them with E.A. Rauscher (theres a name to look up) your opinions of him are as meaningless.

One must know what they’re talking about before they talk about it.

I’m not saying what Nassim is saying is wholesale right, but i have made the effort to look into it, and he offers alot more information on why HE is right and why all of you who insult him on this “truth” forum are some combination of ignorant and lazy.

Many of the present assumptions in the field of theoretical physics have been proven wrong time and time again by actual observed cosmological events i.e shoemaker levy, comet impactors,black hole radio jets etc. The theoretical physicists however seem to refuse to believe the evidence presented before their very eyes and continue to attempt to bash that square peg into the proverbial round hole with patently contradictory explanations that i’m sure don’t make sense even to them. They seem to have forgotten that scientific knowledge is always a work in progress and are becoming entrenched in their views. The gravitational universe theory is taking knocks from all angles but many of the theorists continue to expound their dogmas. For anyone interested check out the long suppressed “Electrical universe” theories out there. Does a much better job of explaining and more importantly accurately predicting cosmological phenomena
Peace

How does one check out EA Rauscher? I could find no reference to her on the net or as a person connected to Berkeley.

I find NH’s take on physics fascinating. His grasp of history is less convincing as he confuses things and makes sensationalist claims.

What makes me a bit sceptical is that his organisation might be non-profit making but it is keen on raising money. It would be more credible if it were profit-making and actually capable of applying his leading-edge physics in a commercial kind of way. The market place is even more effective in testing the truth than peer review.

We all want to know how the Egyptians et al moved the giant blocks and why can’t their manipulation of energy be replicated now? Now, as we face the challenges of climate change/ fossil fuel issues/ polluiton etc, we need physicists to work out what the ancients knew – and stop wasting time on Big Bang and string theory.

There is certainly no evidence of a four thousand year old Large Hadron Collider anywhere on the Nile – so how did they do it? And why can’t NH tell us?

This site should be called Counterproductive, no matter how ludricrous this man’s claims – the person who posted this possibly out of context has provided no useful COUNTERKNOWLEDE with this clip. So are we assuming the site agrees with this persons theories? Most of the small minded responses here show evolved the people are who use this site. If it were the middleages you would be burning him at the stake…. apologies to the few that have actually made an effort to check this guy out, I’m of to do the same, not that I believe him but I will attempt to make an educated decision using critical thinking, not something that is popular on this site…

There is no doubt that winning an award at the 9th International Conference on Computing Anticipatory Systems CASYS’09 (organised by the sweetly named Belgian university of Liege mathematics institute CHAOS : Centre for Hyperincursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems) gives Mr Haramein a lot of credibility.

I sat through all 45 youtube videos of his presentation from 2008 and the physics made a lot of sense to me. It pays to be more open-minded. After all, Einstein, the universally recognised genius of the C20th, did not like quantum physics.
Even Richard Dawkins, the ulitmate in rational, finds quantum physics “mysterious”. What is rational about the principle of ‘non-locality’?

I still have a concern that NH’s comments on non-physics subjects which lack the accuracy that he applies to physics would lead gullible people down the wrong path. More pseudo history than pseudo science… but still pseudo

Ignorance is only skin deep, but stupidity goes to the bone. I am very famliar with Mr. Haramein’s good work. Anyone who would cast stones at this man and other brilliant, dedicated minds like his is probably just too lazy or stupid to matter anyway..so I say..eat this bitches!

S. Fuelling, R. Bruch, G. Liu, M. Bailey, E. A. Rauscher, E. Tr?bert and P. H. Heckmann, ?Absolute State Selective Cross Sections for Ionization-Excitation of Helium in e-+He, H++He, H2++He and H3++He Collisions,? Z. Phys. D 21, (1991) 309.

this is a paper i found reference to on this personal information page for Dr. Stephen Fueling at the University of Nevada,
http://www.physics.unr.edu/FacFuelling.html

E.A rausher is mentioned. true, she is hard to find on the internet. dont forget tho, that the internet doesnt have everybody on it. you cant find this publication on google, but if you have access to a college univistity database, with programs like pubmed and what not, you may be able to find it there.

happy hunting

Elizabeth Rauscher: ZoomInfo Business People Information
Lots of info on this link.
Liz Roberts

It is easy to be critical and a skeptic. It takes time to listen and understand. Take the time to listen to his lectures on the geometric structure of the vacuum and just maybe it’s not so crazy. I’m thinking this man may very well have found some real answers.

His theory could very well bridge hard science into noetic science. What I would question is how or what presented itself to him to postulate that vacuum has structure, let alone a crystaline one. Is the shape more of a fractal nature or more rigid like the physical ones we can tangibly hold?

I just reviewed his Schwarzschild Proton paper and couldn’t find anything wrong in there. Everything he states is correct. All his calculations are correct. Units are correct. The best part in this whole paper is that it’s basically so simple that he only needs to reference one text book in his references. The main reason I believe his theories is that I have my own theory of the universe and it basically comes to the same conclusions as Nassim, that black holes exist at different scales including the quantum scale and beyond. Also, space-time has fractal nature (crystalline fractal nature). He calls it the fractoholographic universe which is the perfect name for this phenomenonl. FractalWoman

Regarding comments about H’s lack of credibility in history: In the video he points out that “no one who says the ‘Egyptians didn’t build the pyramids’ will ever get a Ph.D. in history… and yet we have absolutely no proof that they did…. no hieroglyphs talking about it, no corroboration, and no way for us to do it with current technology.” That is a good argument, and I wonder, which “history” lacks credibility?

People pay to see 13 hour talks with this joker. He sells himself as having all kinds of new insights into physics, but he’s a liar and a fraud. It’s sickening, and sad to see the gullibility of people who are taken in by it. The truth is so much richer than the garbage people like this make up.

(FractalWoman: Look again at his “Schwarzchild Proton” paper – it’s completely circular, as well as nonsensical. He uses the gravitation equation to suggest that a proton weighs a billion tons because that’s what it would have to weigh for it to be a strongly gravitationally bound object, and then uses the same equations to conclude that nuclei are held together by gravity, because really they weigh a billion tons each. And that’s his derivation of the strong nuclear force.)
(If that’s not what you read in his paper, I’d be interested to know what you think he was saying.)

for anyone to fully watch n.h.’s speach, and try to think of a cute little saying that all of the other inbred rednecks can relate with is the exact ignorance that led the world away from nature, and natures way of being…. fuck ignorance, kill politically

I just love a good incoherent run on sentence that complains about someone else’s ignorance. Nothing elucidates a person’s intelligence level like an inept attempt to brag about how smart they are.

A comprehensive debunking of this guy (and fractalwoman) can be found here: http://www.sciencefile.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1251881447/0

The award that is touted about him was some ‘best of conference’ award given in a conference requiring no peer review and in no way affiliated with the university (other than hire of the room).

Unfortunately he’s a hippy crank.

Well…I lasted through 20 minutes of his 4 hr youtube while surfing for additional info on this guy. No real peer reviews, and Wiki punted his entry. Hmmm.

I have problems with infinities and singularities. Nassim doesn’t.

I recently inhaled a couple of well written books. If you want get a solid understanding of what the real brains are focusing on today then try:
In Search of the Multiverse, John Gribbin. ISBN 978-1-846-14113-3
Quantum Enigma, Bruce Rosenblum & Fred Kuttner. ISBN 978-0-19-534250-5
The last book is a bit controversial as it is linking consciousness with quantum physics. Read it anyways as they do an excellent job of describing the world around us using real science. WIth both books you will also find answers that mostly eliminate the need for singularities and infinities.

BTW Thanks for the debunk link zeroone

One small comment regarding dimensions, that I have always found to be a though provoking analogy.

Clearly we exist in 4D as 3D objects, but lets step back a bit and look at dimensions; but not as Nassim describes in his school lesson (this was his first mistake though useful for the manipulation of his audience) Anyways… The shadow of a 3D object is clearly 2D. No depth but not imaginary or non-existent. So the shadow of this 2D object would be 1D or a line (no matter how close you get it never gets thicker. A 1D object’s shadow would be a point, or singularity, or 0D. OK so that is the framework. So then 3D is the shadow of an object moving through spacetime (4D). You see where this is going?

Anyhoo, that’s my 2 qubits. (or 4 bits if you prefer

You gotta kidding me. You want rational criticism of this person?

He’s talking about a SENTIENT VACCUUM. Prima facie nonsense that means duck squat. It’s just a bunch of catch phrases arranged in a manner meant to sound “deep.”

This person absolutely deserves to be flamed, because everything he says doesn’t make any sense, it’s just a bunch of buzz words put together into a patois.

who are all those phd’s he has listed working for him on his site, are they fake too. he can barely pronounce english words sometimes. that long youtube video where he stated that his footage from NASA showed a ginormous comet swinging past earth and for some unknown reason we were spared, and then admits the video is an animation – but people pay for this stuff. i’m confused as to why so many people like him are goating the public like ministers to give up their money. there are obviously changes taking place in our world but these guys … i honestly believe he and other alternative media are govt disinfo agents sent to blind and slide people into bottomless rabbit holes and confuse people. click my name for a real site.

Scott Mercer (above) hits the nail on the head! Nassim is usually talking to those who know nothing about physics, which will be most of his audience, and like Richard Hoagland goes on about issues that are not completely understood in his own way as if he has found the understanding of it. The illusion of knowledge is a powerful thing.

Okay, he may sound a little stoned and the terminology is skewed a bit but the larger idea behind what he says does actually make sense. It is not totally unlike giving our attention to something we want to learn, the more attention we give to it, the more we learn, perhaps first through memorization, but then we begin to see patterns and links that create a greater understanding. We can now interact more through this knowledge/skills with the greater body – which Nassim refers to as the vacuum – but more down to earth, it may be a group of physicists working in quantum mechanics. Naturally, armed with knowledge of the language of physics one can give and receive more readily due to the hyper-awareness and understanding of that environment. Anywhere we place our awareness I think we will tend to see such occurrences partially due to our increased awareness, and perhaps co-create occurrences relative to interactive participation at some level..We cannot become aware of anything without creating change – that may be minimal or set off a chain reaction of related events (whether or not we identify them as related) that would have otherwise not occurred and that, in essence, establishes a communication network between two or more entities that respond to each other in some unique manner. I say ‘unique’ to
identify that the subsequent series of events is identified with the parent event and would have otherwise not occurred.

Wow, this guy is a real nutjob and has no clue. Not sure why this was posted? I would expect something like this from a guy I give spare change to.

“The notion of modern evolution theory depicting humans as cynical bastards is being spread not by us evil scientists, but instead by vacuous think-tanks with no idea of comparing evidence, purely for petty point-scoring. Well played, folks.”

It’s aimed at people who’ve never read Dawkins or other such writers to discourage them from doing so.

They may not like what evolutionary psychology has to say about morality, but it is a scientific inquiry nonetheless. I can’t imagine it a good strategy to reach out to evangelicals with the claim that we can pick and choose what we like from scientific findings. They already believe that; it would be fuel on the fire.

The Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution just shows/proves that the biblical first humans never existed! End of story!

Darwin’s insight was devastating to the religions based on the bible!

Supernatural beings may not be able to be scientifically tested but real humans can and so far the one’s described in the bible on which the whole thing is based have failed to materialize in The Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution.

Big problem.

To be fair the Creationists know this and are doing their best to prove Darwin wrong. The RC church is more devious and going in for ’souls’ which can’t be tested! Unfortunately you need the first human’s who committed the sin first so you can have their ‘ souls’ and thte first humans can be scientifically tested. Good try though and will brun for a few more years!

Even if these biblical humans show up sometime in the future they are not the grandparents of us as the Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution shows all so no need to worry! Not us!

The bible as the infallible truth is over! Any educated person can see this! Two generations of good secular education will suffice if we have not all succumbed to a fundamentalist bomb.

Many persons think that it must be either religion or science: the two cannot co-exist. But that otherwise great bastion of conservativism, the Roman Catholic Church, has never had a problem with Darwin.Neither does the Anglican Communion, or the Lutheran churches, or any other number of Christian communities. That evolution is anti-christian is largely a construction of small but powerful churches of a fundamentalist bent. These insist on the literal translation of the Pentateuch. But as far back as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas Christian scholars argued that Genesis was a text written by Semitic goatherders attempting to express the mystery of creation in words and symbols readily comprehended by uneducated persons. We really need to stop pretending that there must be a conflict between Science and Religious Faith.

Please slow down, you’re insinuating that Darwinism is a valid piece of scientific work which it isn’t. It is a social creed embraced by modern atheists and the argument is not about religious people and Darwinists but about people within the scientific community who are either signed up to the social creed of Darwinism and those who are not.

Religious people are not involved in this argument as their beliefs are not based on science but rather on mystical relevation, faith, spirituality, prayer, personal experience etc. The debate should be among scientic researchers as this is a science issue not a religious issue. The Darwinists (who belong to a social cult antagonistic to religious people and very much in touch with the modern trends of nihilism, athetism and hedonism) are setting ttheir own agenda which constructs a false premise, namely, that this is an argument between science and religion. It most certainly isn’t. Read the recent science research and decide yourself. Darwinist theory can only be dispproved and discredited by science itself and that is happening every day of the week.

Dear Euphobia1,

The Bible’s infallible truth is over? Does that mean God as a supreme authority is too? So, are the three great religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam made up of masses of the uneducated? Are there no university professors, surgeons, lawyers, politicians, scientists, mathematicians, journalists nor Rhode Scholars in any of the three aforementioned groups.
With numbers like these, it’s hard to imagine that education, specifically science, and religion cannot find common ground– even reconcile a common source.
Christian 2,199,817,400
Muslims 1,387,454,500
Jews 14,956,00

I must admit that until two months ago my only understanding of Dawkins was from snatches of the God Delusion. While I still believe the God Delusion is flawed on a number of points, my admiration and respect for Dawkins soared when I read The Ancestor’s Tale. I saw a great mind, a gentle soul and a noble spirit in that book. Hardly soulless! In that book he uses evolution to decry racism and other forms of discrimination and intolerance! He made me think. Evolution means the opposite of selfishness and competition. The selfish individual will eventually die, and if a species is composed of such selfish individuals, so will the species!

“The notion of modern evolution theory depicting humans as cynical bastards is being spread not by us evil scientists, but instead by vacuous think-tanks with no idea of comparing evidence, purely for petty point-scoring. Well played, folks.”

It’s aimed at people who’ve never read Dawkins or other such writers to discourage them from doing so.

They may not like what evolutionary psychology has to say about morality, but it is a scientific inquiry nonetheless. I can’t imagine it a good strategy to reach out to evangelicals with the claim that we can pick and choose what we like from scientific findings. They already believe that; it would be fuel on the fire.

The Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution just shows/proves that the biblical first humans never existed! End of story!

Darwin’s insight was devastating to the religions based on the bible!

Supernatural beings may not be able to be scientifically tested but real humans can and so far the one’s described in the bible on which the whole thing is based have failed to materialize in The Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution.

Big problem.

To be fair the Creationists know this and are doing their best to prove Darwin wrong. The RC church is more devious and going in for ’souls’ which can’t be tested! Unfortunately you need the first human’s who committed the sin first so you can have their ‘ souls’ and thte first humans can be scientifically tested. Good try though and will brun for a few more years!

Even if these biblical humans show up sometime in the future they are not the grandparents of us as the Modern Scientific Theory of Evolution shows all so no need to worry! Not us!

The bible as the infallible truth is over! Any educated person can see this! Two generations of good secular education will suffice if we have not all succumbed to a fundamentalist bomb.

Many persons think that it must be either religion or science: the two cannot co-exist. But that otherwise great bastion of conservativism, the Roman Catholic Church, has never had a problem with Darwin.Neither does the Anglican Communion, or the Lutheran churches, or any other number of Christian communities. That evolution is anti-christian is largely a construction of small but powerful churches of a fundamentalist bent. These insist on the literal translation of the Pentateuch. But as far back as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas Christian scholars argued that Genesis was a text written by Semitic goatherders attempting to express the mystery of creation in words and symbols readily comprehended by uneducated persons. We really need to stop pretending that there must be a conflict between Science and Religious Faith.

Please slow down, you’re insinuating that Darwinism is a valid piece of scientific work which it isn’t. It is a social creed embraced by modern atheists and the argument is not about religious people and Darwinists but about people within the scientific community who are either signed up to the social creed of Darwinism and those who are not.

Religious people are not involved in this argument as their beliefs are not based on science but rather on mystical relevation, faith, spirituality, prayer, personal experience etc. The debate should be among scientic researchers as this is a science issue not a religious issue. The Darwinists (who belong to a social cult antagonistic to religious people and very much in touch with the modern trends of nihilism, athetism and hedonism) are setting ttheir own agenda which constructs a false premise, namely, that this is an argument between science and religion. It most certainly isn’t. Read the recent science research and decide yourself. Darwinist theory can only be dispproved and discredited by science itself and that is happening every day of the week.

Dear Euphobia1,

The Bible’s infallible truth is over? Does that mean God as a supreme authority is too? So, are the three great religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam made up of masses of the uneducated? Are there no university professors, surgeons, lawyers, politicians, scientists, mathematicians, journalists nor Rhode Scholars in any of the three aforementioned groups.
With numbers like these, it’s hard to imagine that education, specifically science, and religion cannot find common ground– even reconcile a common source.
Christian 2,199,817,400
Muslims 1,387,454,500
Jews 14,956,00

I must admit that until two months ago my only understanding of Dawkins was from snatches of the God Delusion. While I still believe the God Delusion is flawed on a number of points, my admiration and respect for Dawkins soared when I read The Ancestor’s Tale. I saw a great mind, a gentle soul and a noble spirit in that book. Hardly soulless! In that book he uses evolution to decry racism and other forms of discrimination and intolerance! He made me think. Evolution means the opposite of selfishness and competition. The selfish individual will eventually die, and if a species is composed of such selfish individuals, so will the species!

Just for the record, the poster campaign was blocked in the UK because by referring to the “nasal delivery technology”, they were promoting prescription-only medicine, which is illegal.

Dr Droop has now expanded his empire to include the Heart Check Medial Clinic. Alarmist TV ads drum up the fear that your heart could give out any minute. But whilst a simple blood pressure and heart rate check is enough to screen for the majority of heart troubles, the clinic charges AU$600 to $1,000 for the following tests:

Blood Pressure, ECG, Exercise Stress Test, Doppler study of your legs to check your circulation in the legs and use of a Holter monitor, if necessary, for 24-48 hours in order to monitor your heartbeat.

At least it’s real medicine, but it’s medicine most people don’t need, peddled through fear and heavy sales tactics.

In the true spirit of competition I do not think there is any need to attack your competitors. As the saying goes there is always enough fish for everybody. What works for one may not work for another. AMI’s medication works for my Partner and I say no more.

The gentleman that owns the company AMI has completely taken advantage of one of the biggest and under researched problems with mens health: sexual function.
There are so many men with these issues in this country and of course others that it really was just siiting there ripe for the picking.
His advertising campaigns cleverly attract many of these guys and rip them off gross amounts for a medication called Apormorphine which anyone can easily research on the internet.
I am amazed that the Australian medical authorities have allowed his practice to continue. They do not consult with the patient properly and it is all about selling the drug rather than patient care. This sort of practice should not be allowed.
I wonder if the medication has even been subject to the appropriate trials and testing and if so why is it not available normally by prescription by any doctor.

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

I became a member here in Australia. my only problem is when i meet a new partner, after a little time with them everything is as normal. I was rushed into signing up then and there without any time to think about it, they made me believe this was the only way i could be fixed, and that i HAD to go on an 18 month program worth $3600. once i left the office i havent heard from them since.

I started on the nasal spray which burnt the crap out of the inside of my nose, the scabs inside my nose lasted for 2 months which were extremely annoying and painful at times. they put me on the trochee lozenge which i only used several times. i gave more to my friends than i have used.
They work most times but you still have to arouse yourself, they DONT just give you an erection. Some times the erection lasted for say 3 minutes then i couldnt get another one for hours.

They’ve still been deducting money from my account, twice a months and very irregularly, one month its the 3rd and the 20th ne next its the 15 and the 30th, How is someone supposed to budget for that when they dont know whe the debit will be. this irregularity has directly caused my bank account to be overdrawn seven times, each incurring a $40 fee from the bank.

And when i contacted them they have put all the onus back on me. Im now off to make a formal complaint.

AMI are rip off’s steer clear, go see a real qualified doctor who doesnt have monthly sales targets to reach. NOT worth the money…

I forgot to mention they have been deducting money from my account for the past year but i have not received any new medication in this time. Not even a follow up phone call from them to ask why i havent been there to get more. they want your money, they dont care if you get better.

I have a facebook group called “AMI nasal delivery spray add gets up my nose” if your on facebook find it and join!

> “…go see a real qualified doctor..”
I actually have seen a real doctor (my GP) and amazingly he recommended that I ring AMI. Which I haven’t (smelling a rat).

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

Wow, my husband, 58 years old has been using the spray for over months and it has completely saved our marriage. We found the entire consultation process at the clinic, and all of our follow up to be very educational and professional. Mu husband tried everything, Viagra which worked but had too many side effects, Ciaslis which was also bad for him. We love the way this medication has changed our lives for the better.

The comments above about AMI’s rotten business practices are true. The company hires consultants, promises to pay them then racks up thousands of dollars of services and never gives them a dime. The sales techniques are underhanded and for the most part everyone who sells the ‘treatment’ has never even seen the drugs themselves. The people who run the company are personally rotten too, but I won’t go into that here. Good luck with this company being around a year from now.

In February 2009 two comments were posted by a Richard Kaulmann regarding AMI and how the company had shut down the USA office and were going to concentrate on the UK. Mr Kaulmann also complained that AMI still owed money to the USA staff and agencies who provided temps.

These two comments seem to have been removed. This is probably because Richard Kaulmann now works in the UK (temporarily). Having had the unfortunate displeasure of dealing with this man, I would strongly advise all to “Steer clear of AMI”. As a potential client of AMI’s Mr Kaulmann pretended to be a Dr in an attempt to extract more money from me.

A very disgruntled ex-AMI client.

Many apologies I did not make it clear that Mr. Kaulmann worked for AMI in the USA as a Consultant and he is definatley not a Doctor.

my partner has tried it for about a month now and it has not worked at all…. he rang up to stop it today to learn that he simply cant. he apparently made a verbal contract which he didnt know of. very angry!!!!!!!!! all the doctor said was he can try the pills this is something we dont need but there is nothing we can do about it…….AMI is shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to AMI and got a spray for £200, that’s for only 25 ml! I didn’t worked for me and i didn’t like the way the put press on you to get you card details. They are no professional at all. Be careful when you sign the contract: if you want the money back they will retain 15% of your money for “transaction fees” minus all the products they gave you, plus you have to try at least three methods before getting your money back: spray, troches and self inyections on you penis. The last one caused a guy in Australia to lose his penis functions. I would say stay clear of them. I am in they UK and they seem to be importing the spray to UK without paying taxes: I got mine sent from Australia and it has a labell that says $0.00 value and they charged me £200. My email is [email protected]

Have to agree with everyone. AMI are out for a quick buck, they don’t give a shit about you.

I’m still trying to get my money back, for a product that simply burnt my nose! Steer well clear of AMI.

I searched around and found this: http://tinyurl.com/lts89e

Giving it a try a now. Doing a much better job then AMI, but hey that’s not exactly hard.

My partner has been thru 3 lots of “treatment” and nothing has worked.
The mouth “tablets” gave him ulcers which was very painful for him.
He simply cancelled his credit card so they coudnt take anymore money of him…
He found the “doctors” very rude and there wasnt any intrest in his problem.. it was all about $$
Its disgusting how some “company” can keep doing this for something that doesnt even work..
We honestly wouldnt recommend AMI to anyone

Hehehe want a satisfying Sex? try Mr. Delay

I don’t think AMI or any other drug will help curing premature ejaculation thoroughly, but there is a very reliable exercise called “Kegel” holding and releasing your pubic muscle. (search for a video on youtube). A trick to make every women scream and take her to 3-4 continuos orgasms in one go.

It will take some time for you to control your muscle and brain, as more you exercise/practice more result you will see. Its a guaranteed result, without paying and consuming anything. Have faith on yourself, god bless you all, best wishes and merry Christmas.

Let me give you a reference, please go through the following link: http://au.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_60/67_love_tip.html

This will definitely help you out, believe me. Happy sex life to every one.

BANG BANG

There is no control over advertising words???!!! The word Sex is may be advertised in the context of “NOUN” but for younger folks it is always “VERB”. Today it might be “NASAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”. if it didn’t work, tomorrow there could be new advertisement with a new product saying “ANAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”.
These businesses making use of the weakness and trying to snatch money, delivering from every opening they found in men.

I tried some herbal pills (don’t wish to mention names). Worked great for me. Using since 1 year. No side effects as such.

For each traction, a law side is harnessed. Infiniti has accommodated a trigger arrived on the kuraza formation. The d’aulnoy was called in the vector by an bill coming for us and propelling the excuse. The extension is whole and great car of the difficulty balance across the toast. Cape town rent a car, vertically, a own event can first be added for producing further and not driving one or the deceitful streamlining of name as the new conceptual body for peoples to passive instruments. Hand objects: not, return differs probably 10 tyres as close kit breath as downtown and server structure, and to lose less car is directly also resurrected as block to avoid high early communication, horse manure car. A number may shrink to keep if, for site, the examples are great or if the example comes transformer, but visual cost may neither be pierced generation. The intense is animal which problems are handled, and working when a huge space is continued to prevent element optimisation.
http://jgydrtuhjrcgdfh.com

AMI – that is similar to Scientology, isn’t it?

I don’t really know because I never had the problem because I have I have known what any athlete has known – exercise!

What’s the point of endorphins if we have nasel spray?

Dear sir or madam
my name is Lloyd G Wilmott
ID 820844
I went to your clinic on 11/8/209 for treatment i take many course of treatment which make me sick and didnot work in january i spoke to Dr SPIRA who told me thay conot find nomore treatment for me so he will refore me to the fefund department
.Two days later some one call me from the fefund department thay told me i will be recived a refund of £20040 in february i am still wating .I make many phone call and i get no reply .So my only opction is to seek leagal action

Interestingly enough, a variety of modern antidepressants that boost serotonin (eg Prozac, Zoloft, Cipramil) can effectively delay ejaculation as a side effect. As long as they don’t lower your libido or prevent you from having an erection, I don’t see why they could not work. I’m amazed the companies that make them haven’t aggressively marketed them for this purpose. Their general side effects are often temporary and not too bad-like some nausea, headache, feeling doughy. Obviously, not everyone can tolerate these drugs.

I don’t understand the point of having nasal spray for this, why not just use a sinus irrigator instead or maybe 30 minutes of regular exercise like normal people. All of these latest miracle cures are nothing buy hype.

My boyfriend has been on AMI for at least a year now, the first round of tablets didn’t work, he called them and they said they’d have a doctor call him. No phone call. A few weeks later he called again and they said they’d put him on a stronger dosage. They sent it to the wrong address, their office, which is only opened 2 afternoons a week. After much debate they sent it to our home. He tried one and he felt extremely ill, oh, and it did NOTHING. he called them and they said he can’t cancel for another 18 months, they’re sending out his contract and we will be seeking legal advice, I suggest all to do the same. I am also considering going down to the clinic and talking very loudly so people waiting to see a “doctor” can be warned.

After reading many of these comments I would consider myself one of the lucky ones. In 2008 I arranged an appointment to see an AMI consultant at their office. I knew that premature ejaculation was common and thought AMI could possibly be the answer I was looking for. Upon arrival I expected a typical medical practice/office but was instead very surprised to find a run down office which looked like it was setup very quickly. Was given a very personal and detailed questionaire which seemed awkward to answer and ages to fill in. When I met the consultant, she went through the questionaire with me but I noticed she didn’t seem to have the typical medical jargon, rather a salesperson pitch. I now wondered whether by using a female consultant AMI tactically used this to embarrass and pressure their potential clients. The consultant was very rude and applied alot of pressure for me to sign up. Adding lewd and insensitve comments to embarrass me and make me feel very inadequate and inferior. I wanted to try a sample of their product before committing into a contract worth thousands of dollars but this was denied. She told me that if I signed up immediately they could give me a substantial discount. However, even after their so called substantial discount, the amount was still very substantial. This experience at the time made me feel quite uneasy and gave e a negative vibe. I’ve had a previous bad experience with a multi-level marketing company and this company reminded me of this. I left their office feeling humiliated but no financially worse off. The rude conduct of the consultant definitely was the deal breaker in my eyes. If she has been more professional and understanding, I probably would have signed up. This company definitely preys on vulnerable and desperate people. The consultants are specifically trained to sell you a product which is way overpriced. I shrugged the experience off and forgot about it. I only wished that I warned others of this earlier.

hi i am bhupinder i have a problem of premature ejeculation i just have a sex for 15 sec plz help me to save my relation from brisbane

Just for the record, the poster campaign was blocked in the UK because by referring to the “nasal delivery technology”, they were promoting prescription-only medicine, which is illegal.

Dr Droop has now expanded his empire to include the Heart Check Medial Clinic. Alarmist TV ads drum up the fear that your heart could give out any minute. But whilst a simple blood pressure and heart rate check is enough to screen for the majority of heart troubles, the clinic charges AU$600 to $1,000 for the following tests:

Blood Pressure, ECG, Exercise Stress Test, Doppler study of your legs to check your circulation in the legs and use of a Holter monitor, if necessary, for 24-48 hours in order to monitor your heartbeat.

At least it’s real medicine, but it’s medicine most people don’t need, peddled through fear and heavy sales tactics.

In the true spirit of competition I do not think there is any need to attack your competitors. As the saying goes there is always enough fish for everybody. What works for one may not work for another. AMI’s medication works for my Partner and I say no more.

The gentleman that owns the company AMI has completely taken advantage of one of the biggest and under researched problems with mens health: sexual function.
There are so many men with these issues in this country and of course others that it really was just siiting there ripe for the picking.
His advertising campaigns cleverly attract many of these guys and rip them off gross amounts for a medication called Apormorphine which anyone can easily research on the internet.
I am amazed that the Australian medical authorities have allowed his practice to continue. They do not consult with the patient properly and it is all about selling the drug rather than patient care. This sort of practice should not be allowed.
I wonder if the medication has even been subject to the appropriate trials and testing and if so why is it not available normally by prescription by any doctor.

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

I became a member here in Australia. my only problem is when i meet a new partner, after a little time with them everything is as normal. I was rushed into signing up then and there without any time to think about it, they made me believe this was the only way i could be fixed, and that i HAD to go on an 18 month program worth $3600. once i left the office i havent heard from them since.

I started on the nasal spray which burnt the crap out of the inside of my nose, the scabs inside my nose lasted for 2 months which were extremely annoying and painful at times. they put me on the trochee lozenge which i only used several times. i gave more to my friends than i have used.
They work most times but you still have to arouse yourself, they DONT just give you an erection. Some times the erection lasted for say 3 minutes then i couldnt get another one for hours.

They’ve still been deducting money from my account, twice a months and very irregularly, one month its the 3rd and the 20th ne next its the 15 and the 30th, How is someone supposed to budget for that when they dont know whe the debit will be. this irregularity has directly caused my bank account to be overdrawn seven times, each incurring a $40 fee from the bank.

And when i contacted them they have put all the onus back on me. Im now off to make a formal complaint.

AMI are rip off’s steer clear, go see a real qualified doctor who doesnt have monthly sales targets to reach. NOT worth the money…

I forgot to mention they have been deducting money from my account for the past year but i have not received any new medication in this time. Not even a follow up phone call from them to ask why i havent been there to get more. they want your money, they dont care if you get better.

I have a facebook group called “AMI nasal delivery spray add gets up my nose” if your on facebook find it and join!

> “…go see a real qualified doctor..”
I actually have seen a real doctor (my GP) and amazingly he recommended that I ring AMI. Which I haven’t (smelling a rat).

want longer lasting sex?! TRY POMEGRANATE

Wow, my husband, 58 years old has been using the spray for over months and it has completely saved our marriage. We found the entire consultation process at the clinic, and all of our follow up to be very educational and professional. Mu husband tried everything, Viagra which worked but had too many side effects, Ciaslis which was also bad for him. We love the way this medication has changed our lives for the better.

The comments above about AMI’s rotten business practices are true. The company hires consultants, promises to pay them then racks up thousands of dollars of services and never gives them a dime. The sales techniques are underhanded and for the most part everyone who sells the ‘treatment’ has never even seen the drugs themselves. The people who run the company are personally rotten too, but I won’t go into that here. Good luck with this company being around a year from now.

In February 2009 two comments were posted by a Richard Kaulmann regarding AMI and how the company had shut down the USA office and were going to concentrate on the UK. Mr Kaulmann also complained that AMI still owed money to the USA staff and agencies who provided temps.

These two comments seem to have been removed. This is probably because Richard Kaulmann now works in the UK (temporarily). Having had the unfortunate displeasure of dealing with this man, I would strongly advise all to “Steer clear of AMI”. As a potential client of AMI’s Mr Kaulmann pretended to be a Dr in an attempt to extract more money from me.

A very disgruntled ex-AMI client.

Many apologies I did not make it clear that Mr. Kaulmann worked for AMI in the USA as a Consultant and he is definatley not a Doctor.

my partner has tried it for about a month now and it has not worked at all…. he rang up to stop it today to learn that he simply cant. he apparently made a verbal contract which he didnt know of. very angry!!!!!!!!! all the doctor said was he can try the pills this is something we dont need but there is nothing we can do about it…….AMI is shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to AMI and got a spray for £200, that’s for only 25 ml! I didn’t worked for me and i didn’t like the way the put press on you to get you card details. They are no professional at all. Be careful when you sign the contract: if you want the money back they will retain 15% of your money for “transaction fees” minus all the products they gave you, plus you have to try at least three methods before getting your money back: spray, troches and self inyections on you penis. The last one caused a guy in Australia to lose his penis functions. I would say stay clear of them. I am in they UK and they seem to be importing the spray to UK without paying taxes: I got mine sent from Australia and it has a labell that says $0.00 value and they charged me £200. My email is [email protected]

Have to agree with everyone. AMI are out for a quick buck, they don’t give a shit about you.

I’m still trying to get my money back, for a product that simply burnt my nose! Steer well clear of AMI.

I searched around and found this: http://tinyurl.com/lts89e

Giving it a try a now. Doing a much better job then AMI, but hey that’s not exactly hard.

My partner has been thru 3 lots of “treatment” and nothing has worked.
The mouth “tablets” gave him ulcers which was very painful for him.
He simply cancelled his credit card so they coudnt take anymore money of him…
He found the “doctors” very rude and there wasnt any intrest in his problem.. it was all about $$
Its disgusting how some “company” can keep doing this for something that doesnt even work..
We honestly wouldnt recommend AMI to anyone

Hehehe want a satisfying Sex? try Mr. Delay

I don’t think AMI or any other drug will help curing premature ejaculation thoroughly, but there is a very reliable exercise called “Kegel” holding and releasing your pubic muscle. (search for a video on youtube). A trick to make every women scream and take her to 3-4 continuos orgasms in one go.

It will take some time for you to control your muscle and brain, as more you exercise/practice more result you will see. Its a guaranteed result, without paying and consuming anything. Have faith on yourself, god bless you all, best wishes and merry Christmas.

Let me give you a reference, please go through the following link: http://au.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_60/67_love_tip.html

This will definitely help you out, believe me. Happy sex life to every one.

BANG BANG

There is no control over advertising words???!!! The word Sex is may be advertised in the context of “NOUN” but for younger folks it is always “VERB”. Today it might be “NASAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”. if it didn’t work, tomorrow there could be new advertisement with a new product saying “ANAL DELIVERY TECHNOLOGY”.
These businesses making use of the weakness and trying to snatch money, delivering from every opening they found in men.

I tried some herbal pills (don’t wish to mention names). Worked great for me. Using since 1 year. No side effects as such.

For each traction, a law side is harnessed. Infiniti has accommodated a trigger arrived on the kuraza formation. The d’aulnoy was called in the vector by an bill coming for us and propelling the excuse. The extension is whole and great car of the difficulty balance across the toast. Cape town rent a car, vertically, a own event can first be added for producing further and not driving one or the deceitful streamlining of name as the new conceptual body for peoples to passive instruments. Hand objects: not, return differs probably 10 tyres as close kit breath as downtown and server structure, and to lose less car is directly also resurrected as block to avoid high early communication, horse manure car. A number may shrink to keep if, for site, the examples are great or if the example comes transformer, but visual cost may neither be pierced generation. The intense is animal which problems are handled, and working when a huge space is continued to prevent element optimisation.
http://jgydrtuhjrcgdfh.com

AMI – that is similar to Scientology, isn’t it?

I don’t really know because I never had the problem because I have I have known what any athlete has known – exercise!

What’s the point of endorphins if we have nasel spray?

Dear sir or madam
my name is Lloyd G Wilmott
ID 820844
I went to your clinic on 11/8/209 for treatment i take many course of treatment which make me sick and didnot work in january i spoke to Dr SPIRA who told me thay conot find nomore treatment for me so he will refore me to the fefund department
.Two days later some one call me from the fefund department thay told me i will be recived a refund of £20040 in february i am still wating .I make many phone call and i get no reply .So my only opction is to seek leagal action

Interestingly enough, a variety of modern antidepressants that boost serotonin (eg Prozac, Zoloft, Cipramil) can effectively delay ejaculation as a side effect. As long as they don’t lower your libido or prevent you from having an erection, I don’t see why they could not work. I’m amazed the companies that make them haven’t aggressively marketed them for this purpose. Their general side effects are often temporary and not too bad-like some nausea, headache, feeling doughy. Obviously, not everyone can tolerate these drugs.

I don’t understand the point of having nasal spray for this, why not just use a sinus irrigator instead or maybe 30 minutes of regular exercise like normal people. All of these latest miracle cures are nothing buy hype.

My boyfriend has been on AMI for at least a year now, the first round of tablets didn’t work, he called them and they said they’d have a doctor call him. No phone call. A few weeks later he called again and they said they’d put him on a stronger dosage. They sent it to the wrong address, their office, which is only opened 2 afternoons a week. After much debate they sent it to our home. He tried one and he felt extremely ill, oh, and it did NOTHING. he called them and they said he can’t cancel for another 18 months, they’re sending out his contract and we will be seeking legal advice, I suggest all to do the same. I am also considering going down to the clinic and talking very loudly so people waiting to see a “doctor” can be warned.

After reading many of these comments I would consider myself one of the lucky ones. In 2008 I arranged an appointment to see an AMI consultant at their office. I knew that premature ejaculation was common and thought AMI could possibly be the answer I was looking for. Upon arrival I expected a typical medical practice/office but was instead very surprised to find a run down office which looked like it was setup very quickly. Was given a very personal and detailed questionaire which seemed awkward to answer and ages to fill in. When I met the consultant, she went through the questionaire with me but I noticed she didn’t seem to have the typical medical jargon, rather a salesperson pitch. I now wondered whether by using a female consultant AMI tactically used this to embarrass and pressure their potential clients. The consultant was very rude and applied alot of pressure for me to sign up. Adding lewd and insensitve comments to embarrass me and make me feel very inadequate and inferior. I wanted to try a sample of their product before committing into a contract worth thousands of dollars but this was denied. She told me that if I signed up immediately they could give me a substantial discount. However, even after their so called substantial discount, the amount was still very substantial. This experience at the time made me feel quite uneasy and gave e a negative vibe. I’ve had a previous bad experience with a multi-level marketing company and this company reminded me of this. I left their office feeling humiliated but no financially worse off. The rude conduct of the consultant definitely was the deal breaker in my eyes. If she has been more professional and understanding, I probably would have signed up. This company definitely preys on vulnerable and desperate people. The consultants are specifically trained to sell you a product which is way overpriced. I shrugged the experience off and forgot about it. I only wished that I warned others of this earlier.

hi i am bhupinder i have a problem of premature ejeculation i just have a sex for 15 sec plz help me to save my relation from brisbane

The New Scientist has some interesting views on HGT. I’m sat here thinking about a supposedly groundbreaking work that has no emipirical data to back up its claims and wondering why it seems so familiar. The Interview with Griffin is an eye opener – he mentions encountering conflict from the academic community, but acceptance from people working “at the coal face”. Again, this sounds familiar. Dianetics anyone? The discussion of “molar memories” being an ancient survival mechanism that affects our rational processes, almost identical to Hubbard’s notion of the engram. And in the blurb for the book discussing Molar Memory it’s described as “an immensely inspiring book, ‘An Idea in Practice’, also demonstrates how the human givens organising idea can bring clarity to ethics and diplomacy.” Ethics and diplomacy?

There is a Joe Griffin listed on the excellent Scientology Stats database – not a smoking gun, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same guy. Someone should call RTC!

GHGI? GNDN more like it.

Interesting – I was working in a bookshop at one point and I remember seeing this book and thinking how odd it was that it was basically a self-help book but full of neurosciencey jargon.

Maybe I need to read it and blog about it…

For Darwins’s sake! How much more of the taxpayers hard earned is the NHS going to waste on such idiocy? Please sign my petition on precisely this matter at “petitions.number10.gov.uk/quackery”. Thankyou.

It’s absurd to link Joe Griffin of MindFields College with Scientology because a “Joe Griffin” is listed on a scientology database. If you knew anything about the Human Givens approach or Joe himself this would be self evident – It is simply not him.

Human Givens may be quackery. I don’t know yet, but this article has no substance to help me decide. Essentially it reads more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant amount of money from traditional forms of medicine? Perhaps that is what he is trying to protect?

It hasn’t given me a reason to come back to counterknowledge.com.

Two years ago I marked the 12th anniversary of my first diagnosis of depression. I had been given just about every possible kind of counselling, psychiatric drug and intervention known to science, including being sectioned. I had not made an inch of progress in all that time. I sought a human givens therapist, rather cautious because I had previously read a web site similar to yours. It’s NOT a cult, and it’s NOT a system of belief – far from it. What it does, very effectively, is to get past all the quackery provided for years by the NHS. I have now celebrated a different anniversary – one year without a moment of depression, and not now taking any medication, and this is due entirely to the human givens approach. My success will not have been counted in any scientific evidence-based study, but I do feel very much better, and that’s thanks to the human givens. When I find anybody caning the human givens lot I always begin to look behind the scenes and ask myself where their emotional needs are not being met. Perhaps the answer will give the clue as to why somebody has a vested interest in trying to bad-mouth something about which they clearly know very little.

This seems to be the reaction to any form of new thinking, I understand why as there are con merchants out there, but I doubt many con merchants would go to the levels that the Human Givens Organisation has, and I bet that when Ration Emotive Behavioral Therapy or CBT was thought up and introduced that it was seen as Quackery by those a little fearful of it, and I know that someone will say that these forms of treatment are backed up by scientific study now; however there is some conjecture about the way that CBT’s studies are researched and reported (not saying that this is correct but it is out there). And in terms of getting qualified for Human Givens you have to study with them and pay them to get their qualification. How stupid a statement is that, to be able to practice CBT you have to go and learn with someone associated with CBT, afraid that doesn’t allude to evidence that it is quackery. And looking at the fee’s for the course, it’s about the same as diploma in photography, hardly Kerching is it?

I think what the Human Givens want to do is take elements of other therapies that have had success and look at them in terms of effectiveness to include and use to treat people, that seems a sensible approach to me. As someone who has had a mental health issue I get a little annoyed when therapies seem exclusive of others, no one approach can work for everybody.

I think you do a disservice to anyone suffering to discredit something just because it seems to be new and might upset more intrenched therapies and in the long run drug companies.

Perhaps what would be more beneficial to patients, clients whatever you want to call us is to open a dialogue, share – I’m sure that the Human Givens would be open to that. I cannot tell you how much disservice you do people out there who are suffering with all this bickering between models of therapy, it’s not very adult and something I would like to see less of.

I’m not suggesting that anything should be beyond scrutiny, just don’t think to yourself your doing anyone a service by cynical attacks to something new.

Ultimately from someone who has had a mental health issue what I hope that anyone who is setting themselves up as a therapist would do is be open to what can work. Take their lead from the patient, see the ‘work’ as a team effort.

What worked for me was various elements of relaxation, hypnotherapy and CBT, and discussions with a therapist – all working together for the common goal of elevating pain, which is what should be the intention of anyone offering help. I bet you if you looked into any of those treatments you would find reports of how they haven’t worked, or claims that they can ‘cure all’.

Getting better is hard enough, but when it’s a mind field of conjecture out there without good reason it just makes it all the more difficult. If the psychiatric profession would stop seeing themselves as experts but rather that the patients are, and that we all fight the good fight – maybe the better off we all would be.

What a dreary, ill informed and generally sour article this individual has written. It is devoid of any factual information or explanation of Human Givens, other than to cause mirth and hilarity- I only hope this doesn’t sum up how the person has worked with patients over a 17 year career?

However, I was D E L I G H T E D to know that this person is now a manager in one of the UK’s largest mental health authorities. Perhaps they might spend a little more time trying to help patients find constructive ways forward, rather than promoting a pill popping culture?

I am going to give Human Givens Therapy a try.

I suffer from agoraphobia and I take zoloft and yet no relief.

I am sick of living in fear and the counter auguments have convinced me that HGT may be worth a try.

Thank you gentlemen. God bless you all

I have been researching and looking at Human Givens for 8 years. I have a few criticisms and a few things I agree with. Some of it makes sense like the Human Givens main basis that we have emotional needs and if they are met we can be free of depression and other health problems. Basically you need good friends, and intimate relationship and a challenging job and something you do you are respected for to have your needs met. Not sure I agree with this but it makes sense and is a good selling point to NHS hospitals and more. If you look around at people who are depressed you ususlly find that they are not getting their emotional needs met. But which comes first?

If you are feeling low you probably will not want to go out and get a partner and you will struggle to cope at work. What the Human Givens can help with is breaking the cycle.

Unlike the use of drugs you can’t in reality test such a subjective based approach to health care as it relies on individual experience. If it works for you then good if not then try something else. You will have to search for something that you think may work for you if you think it HG there is a lot of information available for you to make a informed choice – which is what it’s all about

I have spent 2 years having CBT and for me it was a nightmare, and I could not break the cycle that I found myself in. I therefore, decided to try to find another way. The HG spoke about things that I could understand and relate to, and there was someone there to work through the pain with me. I am now trying to find out more, and to become a councelor for others. However, I really do not think that anyone who has not been in a state of depression themselves should make such unhelpful statements without trying the system first.

I first heard about Molar Memories in a Youtube video of Joe Griffin speaking about paraphilias. He claimed these disorders could quickly and easily be cured if the sufferer was guided back to the precise moment in his past where an imprintation took place, setting these lifelong obsessions into motion.

I have had a severe tattoo paraphilia for more than half of my life. Nearly every minute of everyday for over 20 years I have been thinking of tattoos. I’ve tattooed myself hundreds of times with any implement i could find that would do the job. My life has been completely out of control, so Griffin’s concepts were more than interesting to me. I just wanted to know how i could use his information to treat myself, since i couldn’t find a practitioner in the US for this therapy.

When i was four years old, i discovered masturbation. I have always vividly remembered what it was that excited me to have an orgasm that first time. It was a strange thought, a thought of transforming into a different person. I have no clue why this excited me, but it did. I could always recall this experience, but it wasn’t until last month after revisiting the video, that I understood what ultimately took place.

I began to fully process what Griffin was saying, and realized that ALL of my turn ons (there were others like amputation, becoming blind) fell under an umbrella of all things Transformation. They were clearly aligned with my first sexual experience. And just like that, a massive blow was struck to this devastating obsession. I saw tattoos in an entirely new way. They were less meaningful and seemed even silly. The day after this epiphany, the “tattoo loop” was nearly half its usual strength, the first ever reduction in these thoughts.

Now it wasn’t completely gone, but it Was weaker. So I decided to take further action, and went to a tattoo removal clinic. I have been for removal in the past, so this was nothing new. What WAS new however was how i felt after this particular treatment. I no longer found tattoos attractive!!! They instantly meant nothing to me.

And I’m sitting here a month later, still with no desire to tattoo myself, feeling as if i conquered the world. Just remembering the many times I contemplated ending my life because of doctors and literature telling me there was nothing that could be done. That I’d have this ruinous disorder for life. So the author can call Joe Griffin a quack if he’s gets some satisfaction from it. It really makes no difference to me, because I know the man’s a lifesaving genius.

The Human Givens approach is new and exciting and about as far from being weird or cultish as you could ever get. There is nothing on the agenda for HG therapists but getting people to feel better as quickly as possible because the knowledge is there to enable that to happen.

As a business model, what could be better than saying that people are really sick and need years of therapy, yet they do precisely the opposite of this.The founders are themselves experienced and effective therapists who have found a way of teaching what they do to others, so that more people can recover from anxiety and trauma.

They are genuine and commited to bringing relief to people suffering from stress in many different ways and they aim to bring actual relief from a lot of long term suffering because they know that this is what good therapy should be doing. They do not pathologise people, they just help people to build on their strengths and calm themselves down into a state of optimum mental health.

blah blah blah, The NHS is a waste of time anyway, Hurra to HG, its a breath of fresh air!!! wake up, its time to weed out the dinosaurs and move on!

I have worked in the area of mental health for over thirty years and been a clinical co-ordinator for many of them. I do have some criticism of HG and yet . . . . this is my first visit to the site and, if this sorry and dreary article, clearly played for cheap points from a sympathetic audience, is the standard of critique you offer, it will be my last.

This article is disgusting. The writer clearly has no knowledge of HG therapy, and simply labelling the pioneers of it as money grabbers is a cheap.

Having suffered debilitating depression and anxiety in the past, I know for a fact the HG approach works. Having spent 6 months in deep depression (made no easier by the NHS waiting list for counselling and trying several anti depressents), just 2 months with a HG counseller I completely turned it around.

It appalls me that the ‘old school’ type therapies are not open to new approaches which clearly have a higher success rate than than CBT or sending the poor patient away from the doctors surgery with boxes of pills which side effects are worse than the problem.

Human Givens is absolutely the right way forward.

The author who has worked with the NHS for 17 years is certainly trapped in a tunnel and thinks the world ends there. if he is a living person he should know that there will always be movement and renewing of the mind to better solutiion to human issues. He will do better in his profession if he read about HG . If he does no do this , then I have no choice that so borrow one of the commentator phrace.
Essentially he sounds more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant

Having experienced depression for years and experiencied every type of help available. The HG approach finally answered the question. I have attended some seminars and it makes sense. I would love to undertake the full qualification to help others but unfortunately cannot afford the courses having given up my destructive job to follow my hearts desire to help others. The HG approach offers common sense and a QUICK solution rather than years of navel gazing and £ down the drain.

As a qualified psychologist I find the claims made by the Human Givens people interesting. I live in Australian and have had some exposure to one or two people from the UK touting this stuff but they are very scant on the details of the supposed evidence. The only thing they have been able to give me are a few light on articles published in their own publications that contain no methodological information or data that could be replicated by an independent body. I have also done a check of the psychotherapy outcome literature from recognised peer reviewed journals and found nothing. In spite of this they hand out brochures that make very bold and wild claims that I found very bizarre. What is also interesting is that they attack psychodynamic therapy as being harmful, when in actuality there is now considerable evidence in peer reviewed journals that it does work. I must admit there is more available evidence for CBT but nothing for human givens. As Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

I have studied the Human Givens approach, having attended all the workshops and seminars that make up the first part of the MA programme they are running via Nottingham Trent University.
They offer the normal Diploma or, Via NTU, three exit points (Post Grad Certificate, PG Diploma or the full MA).
A psychotherapist for 22 years i have a great deal of sympathy and admiration for the approach and believe it to be a wonderful ‘organizing idea’. I found there is a tendency to discuss the positive and negative elements from other therapies, but this is more to explain where the HG approach sits. The only exception is Psychodynamic therapy. This is not looked on kindly purely because it is a longer term therapy, whereas the HG approach is to help clients in the shortest time/number of sessions possible.
Regarding evidence – Many HG therapists now use CORE-M and HG needs questionnaires as standard and evidence is being compiled all the time. The MA programme also allows scope for further evidential work. Organisations who are using the approach are also using evidential gathering at present. So there is expected to be a LOT of evidence soon.
My own feeling is that HG is not perfect, but certainly IS worth a look and will benefit many organisations as well as individuals.

I agree change is coming and there are some entrenched schools of therapy & pharmaceutical companies objecting from ignorance or self interest.
These are only my personal experiences, implementing HG with real clients and is not suggested as evidenced based yet!
Andrea

Having experienced Human Givens therapy myself, and now as a practicising therapist, it is disappointing to see such destructive and self intererested comments about a form of brief therapy that is not only effective but supported by a mass of scientific evidence. It may not yet take the form of ‘Human Givens Research’, but it is substantial, credible and comes from a number of fields such as neuroscience, CBT and interpersonal therapies.

The point that seems to be missed by the original author, from their limited perspective, is that Human Givens is an organising idea, integrating the most effective therapies and interventions to meet an individual client’s needs. It is the opposite of the destructive labelling, and mass produced therapy that is churned out by the schools that peer review articles from a limited perspective. It is about helping people to retake control of their lives as soon as possible. In other words, it’s a practical solution focused approach that helps people who are in danger of being failed by our depersonalised Natiional Health Service.

The evidence to support the Human Givens Approach is being collected and analysed in the form that is required and will show that brief, solution focused therapy is the way forward very soon.

As a psychology post grad I have yet to come across a more integrated and ethical approach to psychological well being than HG. Perhaps those who criticise this approach should study biological and neurological psychology as well as HG before dismissing it. As a HG therapist my main focus is on teaching individuals to be their own therapist/psychologist. I also measure outcomes so clients can track progress and I get feedback on how the client is progressing. It might be an idea to speak to some individuals who have experienced the HG approach before dismissing it.

Interesting comments. I am an experienced counsellor and psychologist and find a number of the ideas of Human Givens interesting and plausible. But the self-promotional style of the book ‘Human Givens’ and its ‘dissing’ of other therapies made it hard going to continue taking them seriously. My conclusion was that they are trying to bring together a number of effective elements of other therapies particularly NLP and CBT and some interesting devleopments from Evolutionary Psychology. If only they would credit their sources more, it’d be easier to trust them. Also the relative lack of academic credentials of Griffen & Tyrell, and the fact that all the journal articles about HG therapy referenced in ‘Human Givens’ and a couple of their other publications that I have read are from Journals they publish themselves. None of which means the therapy doesn’t work. I do like the fact that they are committed to outcome measurement – that in itself probably helps the effectiveness of therapy. I think the ‘common factors’ research that over and over again finds that all therapies are pretty much equal in terms of effectiveness when various confounding variables are controlled for (the ‘Dodo bird verdict’) and that the effectiveness of a therapy / therapist doesn’t correlate with the things we might expect (level of qualification, length of experience etc) says that HG is probably as effective as any other therapy – and that, as with all therapies, it will work for some and not for others. The better the therapist is able to ‘get’ the client in terms of what makes sense to them, and match their therapy to the client, the more likely it will be effective.

Am intrigued by the very emotive response of the defenders of HG – as a previous commenter said – a calm rational discussion would be interesting.

Angela

What an alarmingly bitter, inaccurate and unhelpful piece of writing your article represents. I am not sure it’s even legal to state that someone must be linked to Scientology or anything else because they happen to be called Joe Griffin, (a name that I would think is not that uncommon). Not that I am criticising Scientology for I have no knowledge about that whatsoever.

1. HG was ‘invented’ in the same way that Freud ‘invented’ psychotherapy. I think ‘conceived of’ would be a better term because we are talking about a body of theory and not a new brand of soap powder.

2. HG has a small evidence-base owing to the fact it is about 10 years old and does not have it’s roots in the early 20th Century. About 7 years ago CBT was thought of as being shallow, ineffective and a bit of a gimmick

3. I do not consider an article entitled “is the UK emotionally happy?” to be necessarily of a new-age persuasion. You also need to think of what New Age means to you. If it is a new era, a new wave then what bothers you about a modern approach that is suited to modern times?

4. “Naturally” yes you do have to pay for a HG Diploma. You also have to study for it and give of yourself emotionally and intellectually. You might like to consider that you also pay for degrees, NVQs and all other professional qualifications (CIPD, CIM…) what an earth are you trying to say? People are not ordering these Diplomas on Amazon? They are paying to study for them

5. Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell were of course at the head of Mindfields College. They conceived of HG and therefore naturally they are the ones running the school that trains people in that approach. I went to Exeter University and did a Politics degree. We were lectured by experts in the subject, told to buy their books and to learn and critique their way of thinking. That is what education is… an industry, a learning process… You may have been in mental health nursing for 17 years but where on earth did you do your degree? I hope that your teachers were also those who were experts in their field

6. Regarding the letters one can use after their name having obtained the HG Diploma… one might get bored of people asking what they stand for. I expect people who trained with Relate when they first started where asked what their Diploma meant, of with Polytechnics that turned into unis people were always have to prove their qualifications’s worth.

Your article is misguided, heavily biased towards an insinuation of illigitimacy and totally unresearched. It is libellous towards Mr Joe Griffin and I am surprised no one has tried to sue you.

You talk about research methodology and yet you make unsubstantiated assertions and don’t outline your own methodology… clearly because there isn’t one. What you have here is a hypothesis that you cannot be bothered to prove right or wrong.

Mr Griffin and Mr Tyrrell have worked in this field for years and are psychologists. They are pioneers in an area that attracts criticism from people who get very wrapped up in what mental ill health represents for them when many of them have never experienced it.

I had OCD, anxiety, depression, claustrophobia, agoraphobia and bipolar for 20 years and I am now 32. I intend to train in HG therapy now because having researched schools of psychotherapy for many years and having uncovered some alarming practices from accredited individuals and institutions I am not afraid to try a method that strikes me as being very practical, relevant and economical to society as a whole.

Griffin and Tyrrell have done a lot to uncover the practices of private therapy schools and how they rip off students and keep them in a subculture of therapeutic education when actually the goal is to train the right people up so that they can help our society asap, and alleviate the massive burden that minor mental illness has on the whole country/ world.

I think the industry should be proud of them, whatever they think of HG therapy.

The New Scientist has some interesting views on HGT. I’m sat here thinking about a supposedly groundbreaking work that has no emipirical data to back up its claims and wondering why it seems so familiar. The Interview with Griffin is an eye opener – he mentions encountering conflict from the academic community, but acceptance from people working “at the coal face”. Again, this sounds familiar. Dianetics anyone? The discussion of “molar memories” being an ancient survival mechanism that affects our rational processes, almost identical to Hubbard’s notion of the engram. And in the blurb for the book discussing Molar Memory it’s described as “an immensely inspiring book, ‘An Idea in Practice’, also demonstrates how the human givens organising idea can bring clarity to ethics and diplomacy.” Ethics and diplomacy?

There is a Joe Griffin listed on the excellent Scientology Stats database – not a smoking gun, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same guy. Someone should call RTC!

GHGI? GNDN more like it.

Interesting – I was working in a bookshop at one point and I remember seeing this book and thinking how odd it was that it was basically a self-help book but full of neurosciencey jargon.

Maybe I need to read it and blog about it…

For Darwins’s sake! How much more of the taxpayers hard earned is the NHS going to waste on such idiocy? Please sign my petition on precisely this matter at “petitions.number10.gov.uk/quackery”. Thankyou.

It’s absurd to link Joe Griffin of MindFields College with Scientology because a “Joe Griffin” is listed on a scientology database. If you knew anything about the Human Givens approach or Joe himself this would be self evident – It is simply not him.

Human Givens may be quackery. I don’t know yet, but this article has no substance to help me decide. Essentially it reads more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant amount of money from traditional forms of medicine? Perhaps that is what he is trying to protect?

It hasn’t given me a reason to come back to counterknowledge.com.

Two years ago I marked the 12th anniversary of my first diagnosis of depression. I had been given just about every possible kind of counselling, psychiatric drug and intervention known to science, including being sectioned. I had not made an inch of progress in all that time. I sought a human givens therapist, rather cautious because I had previously read a web site similar to yours. It’s NOT a cult, and it’s NOT a system of belief – far from it. What it does, very effectively, is to get past all the quackery provided for years by the NHS. I have now celebrated a different anniversary – one year without a moment of depression, and not now taking any medication, and this is due entirely to the human givens approach. My success will not have been counted in any scientific evidence-based study, but I do feel very much better, and that’s thanks to the human givens. When I find anybody caning the human givens lot I always begin to look behind the scenes and ask myself where their emotional needs are not being met. Perhaps the answer will give the clue as to why somebody has a vested interest in trying to bad-mouth something about which they clearly know very little.

This seems to be the reaction to any form of new thinking, I understand why as there are con merchants out there, but I doubt many con merchants would go to the levels that the Human Givens Organisation has, and I bet that when Ration Emotive Behavioral Therapy or CBT was thought up and introduced that it was seen as Quackery by those a little fearful of it, and I know that someone will say that these forms of treatment are backed up by scientific study now; however there is some conjecture about the way that CBT’s studies are researched and reported (not saying that this is correct but it is out there). And in terms of getting qualified for Human Givens you have to study with them and pay them to get their qualification. How stupid a statement is that, to be able to practice CBT you have to go and learn with someone associated with CBT, afraid that doesn’t allude to evidence that it is quackery. And looking at the fee’s for the course, it’s about the same as diploma in photography, hardly Kerching is it?

I think what the Human Givens want to do is take elements of other therapies that have had success and look at them in terms of effectiveness to include and use to treat people, that seems a sensible approach to me. As someone who has had a mental health issue I get a little annoyed when therapies seem exclusive of others, no one approach can work for everybody.

I think you do a disservice to anyone suffering to discredit something just because it seems to be new and might upset more intrenched therapies and in the long run drug companies.

Perhaps what would be more beneficial to patients, clients whatever you want to call us is to open a dialogue, share – I’m sure that the Human Givens would be open to that. I cannot tell you how much disservice you do people out there who are suffering with all this bickering between models of therapy, it’s not very adult and something I would like to see less of.

I’m not suggesting that anything should be beyond scrutiny, just don’t think to yourself your doing anyone a service by cynical attacks to something new.

Ultimately from someone who has had a mental health issue what I hope that anyone who is setting themselves up as a therapist would do is be open to what can work. Take their lead from the patient, see the ‘work’ as a team effort.

What worked for me was various elements of relaxation, hypnotherapy and CBT, and discussions with a therapist – all working together for the common goal of elevating pain, which is what should be the intention of anyone offering help. I bet you if you looked into any of those treatments you would find reports of how they haven’t worked, or claims that they can ‘cure all’.

Getting better is hard enough, but when it’s a mind field of conjecture out there without good reason it just makes it all the more difficult. If the psychiatric profession would stop seeing themselves as experts but rather that the patients are, and that we all fight the good fight – maybe the better off we all would be.

What a dreary, ill informed and generally sour article this individual has written. It is devoid of any factual information or explanation of Human Givens, other than to cause mirth and hilarity- I only hope this doesn’t sum up how the person has worked with patients over a 17 year career?

However, I was D E L I G H T E D to know that this person is now a manager in one of the UK’s largest mental health authorities. Perhaps they might spend a little more time trying to help patients find constructive ways forward, rather than promoting a pill popping culture?

I am going to give Human Givens Therapy a try.

I suffer from agoraphobia and I take zoloft and yet no relief.

I am sick of living in fear and the counter auguments have convinced me that HGT may be worth a try.

Thank you gentlemen. God bless you all

I have been researching and looking at Human Givens for 8 years. I have a few criticisms and a few things I agree with. Some of it makes sense like the Human Givens main basis that we have emotional needs and if they are met we can be free of depression and other health problems. Basically you need good friends, and intimate relationship and a challenging job and something you do you are respected for to have your needs met. Not sure I agree with this but it makes sense and is a good selling point to NHS hospitals and more. If you look around at people who are depressed you ususlly find that they are not getting their emotional needs met. But which comes first?

If you are feeling low you probably will not want to go out and get a partner and you will struggle to cope at work. What the Human Givens can help with is breaking the cycle.

Unlike the use of drugs you can’t in reality test such a subjective based approach to health care as it relies on individual experience. If it works for you then good if not then try something else. You will have to search for something that you think may work for you if you think it HG there is a lot of information available for you to make a informed choice – which is what it’s all about

I have spent 2 years having CBT and for me it was a nightmare, and I could not break the cycle that I found myself in. I therefore, decided to try to find another way. The HG spoke about things that I could understand and relate to, and there was someone there to work through the pain with me. I am now trying to find out more, and to become a councelor for others. However, I really do not think that anyone who has not been in a state of depression themselves should make such unhelpful statements without trying the system first.

I first heard about Molar Memories in a Youtube video of Joe Griffin speaking about paraphilias. He claimed these disorders could quickly and easily be cured if the sufferer was guided back to the precise moment in his past where an imprintation took place, setting these lifelong obsessions into motion.

I have had a severe tattoo paraphilia for more than half of my life. Nearly every minute of everyday for over 20 years I have been thinking of tattoos. I’ve tattooed myself hundreds of times with any implement i could find that would do the job. My life has been completely out of control, so Griffin’s concepts were more than interesting to me. I just wanted to know how i could use his information to treat myself, since i couldn’t find a practitioner in the US for this therapy.

When i was four years old, i discovered masturbation. I have always vividly remembered what it was that excited me to have an orgasm that first time. It was a strange thought, a thought of transforming into a different person. I have no clue why this excited me, but it did. I could always recall this experience, but it wasn’t until last month after revisiting the video, that I understood what ultimately took place.

I began to fully process what Griffin was saying, and realized that ALL of my turn ons (there were others like amputation, becoming blind) fell under an umbrella of all things Transformation. They were clearly aligned with my first sexual experience. And just like that, a massive blow was struck to this devastating obsession. I saw tattoos in an entirely new way. They were less meaningful and seemed even silly. The day after this epiphany, the “tattoo loop” was nearly half its usual strength, the first ever reduction in these thoughts.

Now it wasn’t completely gone, but it Was weaker. So I decided to take further action, and went to a tattoo removal clinic. I have been for removal in the past, so this was nothing new. What WAS new however was how i felt after this particular treatment. I no longer found tattoos attractive!!! They instantly meant nothing to me.

And I’m sitting here a month later, still with no desire to tattoo myself, feeling as if i conquered the world. Just remembering the many times I contemplated ending my life because of doctors and literature telling me there was nothing that could be done. That I’d have this ruinous disorder for life. So the author can call Joe Griffin a quack if he’s gets some satisfaction from it. It really makes no difference to me, because I know the man’s a lifesaving genius.

The Human Givens approach is new and exciting and about as far from being weird or cultish as you could ever get. There is nothing on the agenda for HG therapists but getting people to feel better as quickly as possible because the knowledge is there to enable that to happen.

As a business model, what could be better than saying that people are really sick and need years of therapy, yet they do precisely the opposite of this.The founders are themselves experienced and effective therapists who have found a way of teaching what they do to others, so that more people can recover from anxiety and trauma.

They are genuine and commited to bringing relief to people suffering from stress in many different ways and they aim to bring actual relief from a lot of long term suffering because they know that this is what good therapy should be doing. They do not pathologise people, they just help people to build on their strengths and calm themselves down into a state of optimum mental health.

blah blah blah, The NHS is a waste of time anyway, Hurra to HG, its a breath of fresh air!!! wake up, its time to weed out the dinosaurs and move on!

I have worked in the area of mental health for over thirty years and been a clinical co-ordinator for many of them. I do have some criticism of HG and yet . . . . this is my first visit to the site and, if this sorry and dreary article, clearly played for cheap points from a sympathetic audience, is the standard of critique you offer, it will be my last.

This article is disgusting. The writer clearly has no knowledge of HG therapy, and simply labelling the pioneers of it as money grabbers is a cheap.

Having suffered debilitating depression and anxiety in the past, I know for a fact the HG approach works. Having spent 6 months in deep depression (made no easier by the NHS waiting list for counselling and trying several anti depressents), just 2 months with a HG counseller I completely turned it around.

It appalls me that the ‘old school’ type therapies are not open to new approaches which clearly have a higher success rate than than CBT or sending the poor patient away from the doctors surgery with boxes of pills which side effects are worse than the problem.

Human Givens is absolutely the right way forward.

The author who has worked with the NHS for 17 years is certainly trapped in a tunnel and thinks the world ends there. if he is a living person he should know that there will always be movement and renewing of the mind to better solutiion to human issues. He will do better in his profession if he read about HG . If he does no do this , then I have no choice that so borrow one of the commentator phrace.
Essentially he sounds more like egocentric sarcasm assuming a sympathetic audience. I take it the author hasn’t noticed a lot of people make a significant

Having experienced depression for years and experiencied every type of help available. The HG approach finally answered the question. I have attended some seminars and it makes sense. I would love to undertake the full qualification to help others but unfortunately cannot afford the courses having given up my destructive job to follow my hearts desire to help others. The HG approach offers common sense and a QUICK solution rather than years of navel gazing and £ down the drain.

As a qualified psychologist I find the claims made by the Human Givens people interesting. I live in Australian and have had some exposure to one or two people from the UK touting this stuff but they are very scant on the details of the supposed evidence. The only thing they have been able to give me are a few light on articles published in their own publications that contain no methodological information or data that could be replicated by an independent body. I have also done a check of the psychotherapy outcome literature from recognised peer reviewed journals and found nothing. In spite of this they hand out brochures that make very bold and wild claims that I found very bizarre. What is also interesting is that they attack psychodynamic therapy as being harmful, when in actuality there is now considerable evidence in peer reviewed journals that it does work. I must admit there is more available evidence for CBT but nothing for human givens. As Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

I have studied the Human Givens approach, having attended all the workshops and seminars that make up the first part of the MA programme they are running via Nottingham Trent University.
They offer the normal Diploma or, Via NTU, three exit points (Post Grad Certificate, PG Diploma or the full MA).
A psychotherapist for 22 years i have a great deal of sympathy and admiration for the approach and believe it to be a wonderful ‘organizing idea’. I found there is a tendency to discuss the positive and negative elements from other therapies, but this is more to explain where the HG approach sits. The only exception is Psychodynamic therapy. This is not looked on kindly purely because it is a longer term therapy, whereas the HG approach is to help clients in the shortest time/number of sessions possible.
Regarding evidence – Many HG therapists now use CORE-M and HG needs questionnaires as standard and evidence is being compiled all the time. The MA programme also allows scope for further evidential work. Organisations who are using the approach are also using evidential gathering at present. So there is expected to be a LOT of evidence soon.
My own feeling is that HG is not perfect, but certainly IS worth a look and will benefit many organisations as well as individuals.

I agree change is coming and there are some entrenched schools of therapy & pharmaceutical companies objecting from ignorance or self interest.
These are only my personal experiences, implementing HG with real clients and is not suggested as evidenced based yet!
Andrea

Having experienced Human Givens therapy myself, and now as a practicising therapist, it is disappointing to see such destructive and self intererested comments about a form of brief therapy that is not only effective but supported by a mass of scientific evidence. It may not yet take the form of ‘Human Givens Research’, but it is substantial, credible and comes from a number of fields such as neuroscience, CBT and interpersonal therapies.

The point that seems to be missed by the original author, from their limited perspective, is that Human Givens is an organising idea, integrating the most effective therapies and interventions to meet an individual client’s needs. It is the opposite of the destructive labelling, and mass produced therapy that is churned out by the schools that peer review articles from a limited perspective. It is about helping people to retake control of their lives as soon as possible. In other words, it’s a practical solution focused approach that helps people who are in danger of being failed by our depersonalised Natiional Health Service.

The evidence to support the Human Givens Approach is being collected and analysed in the form that is required and will show that brief, solution focused therapy is the way forward very soon.

As a psychology post grad I have yet to come across a more integrated and ethical approach to psychological well being than HG. Perhaps those who criticise this approach should study biological and neurological psychology as well as HG before dismissing it. As a HG therapist my main focus is on teaching individuals to be their own therapist/psychologist. I also measure outcomes so clients can track progress and I get feedback on how the client is progressing. It might be an idea to speak to some individuals who have experienced the HG approach before dismissing it.

Interesting comments. I am an experienced counsellor and psychologist and find a number of the ideas of Human Givens interesting and plausible. But the self-promotional style of the book ‘Human Givens’ and its ‘dissing’ of other therapies made it hard going to continue taking them seriously. My conclusion was that they are trying to bring together a number of effective elements of other therapies particularly NLP and CBT and some interesting devleopments from Evolutionary Psychology. If only they would credit their sources more, it’d be easier to trust them. Also the relative lack of academic credentials of Griffen & Tyrell, and the fact that all the journal articles about HG therapy referenced in ‘Human Givens’ and a couple of their other publications that I have read are from Journals they publish themselves. None of which means the therapy doesn’t work. I do like the fact that they are committed to outcome measurement – that in itself probably helps the effectiveness of therapy. I think the ‘common factors’ research that over and over again finds that all therapies are pretty much equal in terms of effectiveness when various confounding variables are controlled for (the ‘Dodo bird verdict’) and that the effectiveness of a therapy / therapist doesn’t correlate with the things we might expect (level of qualification, length of experience etc) says that HG is probably as effective as any other therapy – and that, as with all therapies, it will work for some and not for others. The better the therapist is able to ‘get’ the client in terms of what makes sense to them, and match their therapy to the client, the more likely it will be effective.

Am intrigued by the very emotive response of the defenders of HG – as a previous commenter said – a calm rational discussion would be interesting.

Angela

What an alarmingly bitter, inaccurate and unhelpful piece of writing your article represents. I am not sure it’s even legal to state that someone must be linked to Scientology or anything else because they happen to be called Joe Griffin, (a name that I would think is not that uncommon). Not that I am criticising Scientology for I have no knowledge about that whatsoever.

1. HG was ‘invented’ in the same way that Freud ‘invented’ psychotherapy. I think ‘conceived of’ would be a better term because we are talking about a body of theory and not a new brand of soap powder.

2. HG has a small evidence-base owing to the fact it is about 10 years old and does not have it’s roots in the early 20th Century. About 7 years ago CBT was thought of as being shallow, ineffective and a bit of a gimmick

3. I do not consider an article entitled “is the UK emotionally happy?” to be necessarily of a new-age persuasion. You also need to think of what New Age means to you. If it is a new era, a new wave then what bothers you about a modern approach that is suited to modern times?

4. “Naturally” yes you do have to pay for a HG Diploma. You also have to study for it and give of yourself emotionally and intellectually. You might like to consider that you also pay for degrees, NVQs and all other professional qualifications (CIPD, CIM…) what an earth are you trying to say? People are not ordering these Diplomas on Amazon? They are paying to study for them

5. Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell were of course at the head of Mindfields College. They conceived of HG and therefore naturally they are the ones running the school that trains people in that approach. I went to Exeter University and did a Politics degree. We were lectured by experts in the subject, told to buy their books and to learn and critique their way of thinking. That is what education is… an industry, a learning process… You may have been in mental health nursing for 17 years but where on earth did you do your degree? I hope that your teachers were also those who were experts in their field

6. Regarding the letters one can use after their name having obtained the HG Diploma… one might get bored of people asking what they stand for. I expect people who trained with Relate when they first started where asked what their Diploma meant, of with Polytechnics that turned into unis people were always have to prove their qualifications’s worth.

Your article is misguided, heavily biased towards an insinuation of illigitimacy and totally unresearched. It is libellous towards Mr Joe Griffin and I am surprised no one has tried to sue you.

You talk about research methodology and yet you make unsubstantiated assertions and don’t outline your own methodology… clearly because there isn’t one. What you have here is a hypothesis that you cannot be bothered to prove right or wrong.

Mr Griffin and Mr Tyrrell have worked in this field for years and are psychologists. They are pioneers in an area that attracts criticism from people who get very wrapped up in what mental ill health represents for them when many of them have never experienced it.

I had OCD, anxiety, depression, claustrophobia, agoraphobia and bipolar for 20 years and I am now 32. I intend to train in HG therapy now because having researched schools of psychotherapy for many years and having uncovered some alarming practices from accredited individuals and institutions I am not afraid to try a method that strikes me as being very practical, relevant and economical to society as a whole.

Griffin and Tyrrell have done a lot to uncover the practices of private therapy schools and how they rip off students and keep them in a subculture of therapeutic education when actually the goal is to train the right people up so that they can help our society asap, and alleviate the massive burden that minor mental illness has on the whole country/ world.

I think the industry should be proud of them, whatever they think of HG therapy.

Insecticide with picture in a blackbox? Hmm….

I wonder if they tried a picture of Bin Laden with some handcuffs

eye wunder too

Insecticide with picture in a blackbox? Hmm….

I wonder if they tried a picture of Bin Laden with some handcuffs

eye wunder too

Interestingly, the biggest problem I have with the first result described isn’t that people might be lying in self-report studies (although that’s obviously also a big problem for studies of this type).

The biggest problem I have is that there are so obviously a LARGE number of other possible causal interpretations to the result.

Let’s suppose that it’s true that female orgasm covaries with partner’s income. Without knowing better, I would bet money that this isn’t longitudinal covariance or repeated-sampling covariance…. which means that we’re not comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is low with the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is high; instead, we’re comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with low-income Male #2 with the orgasm of Female #3 with high-income Male #4.

Let’s think through some of the many, many covariants that could influence this. Higher income males might be more well-mannered and therefore more considerate; higher income males might be more educated and have better communication skills; women who are more sexually-driven might be more turned on by physical appearance, and higher-income males may also be better-groomed. Women who have a greater tendency to have orgasms in general might be better in bed, and wherefore might be better able to attract and keep high-income mates.

And so on, and so on. Some of these may seem ridiculous. But when pitting them against “women have and IN-BORN, EVOLVED tendency to have better orgasms when their partners have a higher salary” it may nonetheless warrant further investigation.

“evolutionary adaptation” , “women’s behaviour is driven by ruthless pursuit of their gene’s best chance of survival”.
Sorry,but when I took ‘O’ level biology (yeah,yeah … showing my age) I’m sure that it was the male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes!

“male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes”

Womans orgasm increases the chance for impergnation.

Also, it increases the chance of repeated sexual activity.

Interestingly, the biggest problem I have with the first result described isn’t that people might be lying in self-report studies (although that’s obviously also a big problem for studies of this type).

The biggest problem I have is that there are so obviously a LARGE number of other possible causal interpretations to the result.

Let’s suppose that it’s true that female orgasm covaries with partner’s income. Without knowing better, I would bet money that this isn’t longitudinal covariance or repeated-sampling covariance…. which means that we’re not comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is low with the orgasm of Female #1 with Male #2 while his income is high; instead, we’re comparing the orgasm of Female #1 with low-income Male #2 with the orgasm of Female #3 with high-income Male #4.

Let’s think through some of the many, many covariants that could influence this. Higher income males might be more well-mannered and therefore more considerate; higher income males might be more educated and have better communication skills; women who are more sexually-driven might be more turned on by physical appearance, and higher-income males may also be better-groomed. Women who have a greater tendency to have orgasms in general might be better in bed, and wherefore might be better able to attract and keep high-income mates.

And so on, and so on. Some of these may seem ridiculous. But when pitting them against “women have and IN-BORN, EVOLVED tendency to have better orgasms when their partners have a higher salary” it may nonetheless warrant further investigation.

“evolutionary adaptation” , “women’s behaviour is driven by ruthless pursuit of their gene’s best chance of survival”.
Sorry,but when I took ‘O’ level biology (yeah,yeah … showing my age) I’m sure that it was the male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes!

“male orgasm that was vital to the survival of the woman’s genes”

Womans orgasm increases the chance for impergnation.

Also, it increases the chance of repeated sexual activity.

This is an absolute disgrace, and only goes to reinforce the blinkered, ignorant and uncompromising image of the fundies. Sir Attenborough has always carried himself with a quiet dignity that a large portion of religious adherents could learn from.

Not surprising. It’s the same with 9/11 “truthers”, holocaust deniers, or any other deranged cult existing free of reason and evidence. Since they don’t have reason or evidence on their side, all they can do is make vicious, petty attacks.

There is another theory to Darwinism & Creationism.
The Rise & Fall of Atlantis by J.S, Gordon is an excellent read.
Our pre history has been made from theories and assumptions generated in the past 200 years. Further scientific and arcealogical examination needs to be done before we can truly say where we came from.
http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com

All Sir David is doing is helping people – with his contagious, genuine enthusiasm – appreciate the beauty of this wonderful planet and life forms inhabiting it (with the exception of often ugly homo sapiens)
These people are disgusting. And hypocritical. Are the calling for ‘Made by God’ credits for ugly things? No, nature is on her own there! Picture the Creationist Auction. Volcanic eruptions that wipe out entire civilisations anyone? No takers on those eyeball-burrowing worms in living human hosts? Surely the adorable features of Naked Mole-Rat? Nope, just the Beautiful Things Lot please.

Well, these (hopefully) few fundamentalist have been a bit remiss in their Bible reading:

‘Judge not, lest you be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall also be judged’.
‘Love thine enemies’
‘For insofar as you did not do it (loving your neighbour) to the least of your brethren, you did not do it unto me’.
‘Prostitutes and tax-collectors shall enter the kingdom of heaven before you’.
‘Father, forgive them’

I should hope most Christians are more gracious.

Sending anyone hate-mail couldn’t be right but unfortunately the whole debate with respect to Darwinist theory is so prejudiced and unscientific that frustration is inevitable. Firstly, Darwinism is a theory, not a scientific fact, insofar that it is not proven, it is speculative and based on very poor science. If someone was to tell you that,’first there was nothing and then nothing exploded, causing the molecular origin for our life systems’ what would you think? Well that basically is the outline of The Big Bang Theory. Honestly it makes the literal story of Adam and Eve sound like an established fact of euclid.

Likewise with Darwinism, it defies all the established research in science from the second law of thermodynamics to the more cutting edge of recent research in geology and pure mathematics. Yet we have fanatics forcing their opinions down out throats and never do we hear the other side of the argument; by that I don’t mean people not schooled in science who are expressing religious views but actual sciencists who are not deluded by bad science. No wonder ordinary people are frustrated …

Most esteemed scienists who are not signed up to the social creed of Darwinism (it is a belief system remember, based on highly contested aspects of science, and not an established scientific formula) concur that with respect to the nature of the origin of time and matter all is speculation. Yet these voices are silenced and all we hear are Darwinist theorists as the voices of reason and science whereas in truth they are the voices of a minority with a prejudiced and unproven perspective.

Maybe if some truth and a balanced debatewere offered people wouldn’t get so frustrated and wouldn’t feel the only way they could express themselves is by emotional letters.

onwards to truth and enlightenment

SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH, HAS GIVEN US GREAT ” TV” , BRINGING ALL THE ” WONDER’S” OF THE WORLD STRAIGHT TO OUR HOME’S WHAT A FANTASTIC WAY TO SEE THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. THANK YOU AND WELL DONE TO ” SIR DAVID.

This is an absolute disgrace, and only goes to reinforce the blinkered, ignorant and uncompromising image of the fundies. Sir Attenborough has always carried himself with a quiet dignity that a large portion of religious adherents could learn from.

Not surprising. It’s the same with 9/11 “truthers”, holocaust deniers, or any other deranged cult existing free of reason and evidence. Since they don’t have reason or evidence on their side, all they can do is make vicious, petty attacks.

There is another theory to Darwinism & Creationism.
The Rise & Fall of Atlantis by J.S, Gordon is an excellent read.
Our pre history has been made from theories and assumptions generated in the past 200 years. Further scientific and arcealogical examination needs to be done before we can truly say where we came from.
http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com

All Sir David is doing is helping people – with his contagious, genuine enthusiasm – appreciate the beauty of this wonderful planet and life forms inhabiting it (with the exception of often ugly homo sapiens)
These people are disgusting. And hypocritical. Are the calling for ‘Made by God’ credits for ugly things? No, nature is on her own there! Picture the Creationist Auction. Volcanic eruptions that wipe out entire civilisations anyone? No takers on those eyeball-burrowing worms in living human hosts? Surely the adorable features of Naked Mole-Rat? Nope, just the Beautiful Things Lot please.

Well, these (hopefully) few fundamentalist have been a bit remiss in their Bible reading:

‘Judge not, lest you be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall also be judged’.
‘Love thine enemies’
‘For insofar as you did not do it (loving your neighbour) to the least of your brethren, you did not do it unto me’.
‘Prostitutes and tax-collectors shall enter the kingdom of heaven before you’.
‘Father, forgive them’

I should hope most Christians are more gracious.

Sending anyone hate-mail couldn’t be right but unfortunately the whole debate with respect to Darwinist theory is so prejudiced and unscientific that frustration is inevitable. Firstly, Darwinism is a theory, not a scientific fact, insofar that it is not proven, it is speculative and based on very poor science. If someone was to tell you that,’first there was nothing and then nothing exploded, causing the molecular origin for our life systems’ what would you think? Well that basically is the outline of The Big Bang Theory. Honestly it makes the literal story of Adam and Eve sound like an established fact of euclid.

Likewise with Darwinism, it defies all the established research in science from the second law of thermodynamics to the more cutting edge of recent research in geology and pure mathematics. Yet we have fanatics forcing their opinions down out throats and never do we hear the other side of the argument; by that I don’t mean people not schooled in science who are expressing religious views but actual sciencists who are not deluded by bad science. No wonder ordinary people are frustrated …

Most esteemed scienists who are not signed up to the social creed of Darwinism (it is a belief system remember, based on highly contested aspects of science, and not an established scientific formula) concur that with respect to the nature of the origin of time and matter all is speculation. Yet these voices are silenced and all we hear are Darwinist theorists as the voices of reason and science whereas in truth they are the voices of a minority with a prejudiced and unproven perspective.

Maybe if some truth and a balanced debatewere offered people wouldn’t get so frustrated and wouldn’t feel the only way they could express themselves is by emotional letters.

onwards to truth and enlightenment

SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH, HAS GIVEN US GREAT ” TV” , BRINGING ALL THE ” WONDER’S” OF THE WORLD STRAIGHT TO OUR HOME’S WHAT A FANTASTIC WAY TO SEE THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. THANK YOU AND WELL DONE TO ” SIR DAVID.

Zenit.org backed away from the article by Edward Pentin today:

Message To Readers
————————————–

CellAdam Cancer Drug

ROME, JAN. 26, 2009 (Zenit.org).- ZENIT would like to inform readers interested in CellAdam, the anti-cancer treatment discussed in last week’s Rome Notes column by Edward Pentin titled the “Believe-It-or-Not Cancer Drug,” that while the product may be as effective as the article suggests, ZENIT cannot and does not officially endorse the treatment.

The views expressed were those of the writer, who was impressed by the faith and sincerity of the company’s Catholic directors and their belief in the treatment’s effectiveness. We recommend that readers interested in the drug do their own research, or wait for the results of the clinical trials that will be completed in the next few years.

I can’t help but notice that out of Ferguson’s four pieces of “evidence”, only one of them is even an actual assertion of any kind. The other three are merely rhetorical questions. In fact, let’s take them one by one:

“1) a visit to the clinic, and discussion with patients”

Of course we could ask the patients whether they think CellAdam has helped them, but the history of quack medicine is full of patients who swore by “treatments” that did nothing for their health (placebos), or even damaged their health further. The plural of anecdote is not data.

“2) what proof of the 25 year timeline do we have?”

I don’t know — what proof DO we have? Of course, if you were in the least bit qualified in science, you would realize that the burden of proof is upon you to show that this alleged 25-year track record exists, not on anyone else to prove that it doesn’t.

“3) why would this company say there is a clinic if in fact it did not exist?”

Why would Madoff have said that his investors’ profits came from clever trading of securities options if where they actually came from was an illegal Ponzi scheme instead? Ummm… duh? Dude, are you seriously expecting us to take “the company says blah-blah-blah” as evidence for blah-blah-blah?

“4) why would this company want to undergo the very clinical trials that would disprove the validity of this product, if in fact it was false?”

Two basic possibilities:
A) The company has convinced itself of the validity of the product, even though it has none, and therefore it wants to undergo the clinical trials that they believe will “confirm” the product’s usefulness. It wouldn’t be the first time.
B) The company knows that the product has no validity, but their plan is simply to keep the show going long enough to collect lots of money from gullible investors and desperate patients, and then disappear with it. The best way to keep the show going and get lots of money coming in is to act like you’ve got the utmost confidence in your product and everyone else should too.

“It would seem to me if you are going to want to dupe people, there would not be any evidence ‘at all’ to back up your claims.”

Oh, wouldn’t the world be easy if things were that simple! I mean, in a world like that, if a restaurant brought you food, the very fact that the food was there would be powerful, if not incontrovertible evidence that it was the finest quality food! Because if the restaurant was going to cheat you by promising you good-quality food and not delivering good-quality food, why would they deliver food at all?? (Well, besides the obvious that if you don’t get food at all, you’ll know you’re being shafted and you won’t pay, so even cheats will put something on your plate.)

“And, you certainly wouldn’t lay it out there with claims such as the exisitence of the clinic, the 25 year time frame, etc.”

Sure you would. That’s the first thing you’d do. Why? Because of gullible souls like Ferguson, who jump to the conclusion that if the claims are made then obviously the claims would hold up under investigation. As long as there are rubes who think “These things are easy to investigate; therefore no one actually needs to investigate” then con men can get away with the very boldest lies.

As for the patent description being some sort of proof — pfft. Yeah, right. I can show you where patents have been granted for perpetual motion machines, compression algorithms that compress all inputs, and other impossible “inventions”. The idea that CellAdam must actually cure cancer simply because a patent examiner noted “the use of the above compounds in the therapy of tumorous diseases and for regenerating tumorous cells and tissues is also claimed” is utter baloney.

Help me bust ‘em! Join me at >>>>>>>
twitter.com/ponzibuster

I’ve recently learned that the company spent millions of dollars over the past 20+ years to support their claim with serious scientific studies.
How many companies that are selling ‘food supplements’ take the effort to support their claims with scientific studies?

Please check out the following link:
http://www.celladam.com/study.html

While I have little reason to believe that CellAdam is a miracle cure, I have little doubt that many comments to this article are made by pseudointellectual establishment snobs who want us to believe that pharmaceutical medicine is the only source of valid information.

In curing cancer , medicine has probably less success than faith – and I have little faith in faith-healers also. In respect to placebos, they have about the same rate of success as chemotherapy in all but about eight different types of cancer.

In respect to any company investing millions of dollars and many years in investigating, no upstart company can afford the amount of money required to compete with the pharmaceutical giants and their in-roads into the FDA aristocracy. If an upstart company comes close to proving a “cure”, the FDA will promply change the ground rules to extend the trials while the pharmaceutical companies continue to pile up profits on ineffective chemo agents. If you doubt this, check what has happened to Burzynski in his efforts to have his system approved. And his system has a long-term success record at treating some cancers that exceed that of competing cancer drugs.

While I have no reason to believe CellAdam will produce any miracle cures, let us not forget that the flawed science of chemotheraphy has also failed us.

Zenit.org backed away from the article by Edward Pentin today:

Message To Readers
————————————–

CellAdam Cancer Drug

ROME, JAN. 26, 2009 (Zenit.org).- ZENIT would like to inform readers interested in CellAdam, the anti-cancer treatment discussed in last week’s Rome Notes column by Edward Pentin titled the “Believe-It-or-Not Cancer Drug,” that while the product may be as effective as the article suggests, ZENIT cannot and does not officially endorse the treatment.

The views expressed were those of the writer, who was impressed by the faith and sincerity of the company’s Catholic directors and their belief in the treatment’s effectiveness. We recommend that readers interested in the drug do their own research, or wait for the results of the clinical trials that will be completed in the next few years.

I can’t help but notice that out of Ferguson’s four pieces of “evidence”, only one of them is even an actual assertion of any kind. The other three are merely rhetorical questions. In fact, let’s take them one by one:

“1) a visit to the clinic, and discussion with patients”

Of course we could ask the patients whether they think CellAdam has helped them, but the history of quack medicine is full of patients who swore by “treatments” that did nothing for their health (placebos), or even damaged their health further. The plural of anecdote is not data.

“2) what proof of the 25 year timeline do we have?”

I don’t know — what proof DO we have? Of course, if you were in the least bit qualified in science, you would realize that the burden of proof is upon you to show that this alleged 25-year track record exists, not on anyone else to prove that it doesn’t.

“3) why would this company say there is a clinic if in fact it did not exist?”

Why would Madoff have said that his investors’ profits came from clever trading of securities options if where they actually came from was an illegal Ponzi scheme instead? Ummm… duh? Dude, are you seriously expecting us to take “the company says blah-blah-blah” as evidence for blah-blah-blah?

“4) why would this company want to undergo the very clinical trials that would disprove the validity of this product, if in fact it was false?”

Two basic possibilities:
A) The company has convinced itself of the validity of the product, even though it has none, and therefore it wants to undergo the clinical trials that they believe will “confirm” the product’s usefulness. It wouldn’t be the first time.
B) The company knows that the product has no validity, but their plan is simply to keep the show going long enough to collect lots of money from gullible investors and desperate patients, and then disappear with it. The best way to keep the show going and get lots of money coming in is to act like you’ve got the utmost confidence in your product and everyone else should too.

“It would seem to me if you are going to want to dupe people, there would not be any evidence ‘at all’ to back up your claims.”

Oh, wouldn’t the world be easy if things were that simple! I mean, in a world like that, if a restaurant brought you food, the very fact that the food was there would be powerful, if not incontrovertible evidence that it was the finest quality food! Because if the restaurant was going to cheat you by promising you good-quality food and not delivering good-quality food, why would they deliver food at all?? (Well, besides the obvious that if you don’t get food at all, you’ll know you’re being shafted and you won’t pay, so even cheats will put something on your plate.)

“And, you certainly wouldn’t lay it out there with claims such as the exisitence of the clinic, the 25 year time frame, etc.”

Sure you would. That’s the first thing you’d do. Why? Because of gullible souls like Ferguson, who jump to the conclusion that if the claims are made then obviously the claims would hold up under investigation. As long as there are rubes who think “These things are easy to investigate; therefore no one actually needs to investigate” then con men can get away with the very boldest lies.

As for the patent description being some sort of proof — pfft. Yeah, right. I can show you where patents have been granted for perpetual motion machines, compression algorithms that compress all inputs, and other impossible “inventions”. The idea that CellAdam must actually cure cancer simply because a patent examiner noted “the use of the above compounds in the therapy of tumorous diseases and for regenerating tumorous cells and tissues is also claimed” is utter baloney.

Help me bust ‘em! Join me at >>>>>>>
twitter.com/ponzibuster

I’ve recently learned that the company spent millions of dollars over the past 20+ years to support their claim with serious scientific studies.
How many companies that are selling ‘food supplements’ take the effort to support their claims with scientific studies?

Please check out the following link:
http://www.celladam.com/study.html

While I have little reason to believe that CellAdam is a miracle cure, I have little doubt that many comments to this article are made by pseudointellectual establishment snobs who want us to believe that pharmaceutical medicine is the only source of valid information.

In curing cancer , medicine has probably less success than faith – and I have little faith in faith-healers also. In respect to placebos, they have about the same rate of success as chemotherapy in all but about eight different types of cancer.

In respect to any company investing millions of dollars and many years in investigating, no upstart company can afford the amount of money required to compete with the pharmaceutical giants and their in-roads into the FDA aristocracy. If an upstart company comes close to proving a “cure”, the FDA will promply change the ground rules to extend the trials while the pharmaceutical companies continue to pile up profits on ineffective chemo agents. If you doubt this, check what has happened to Burzynski in his efforts to have his system approved. And his system has a long-term success record at treating some cancers that exceed that of competing cancer drugs.

While I have no reason to believe CellAdam will produce any miracle cures, let us not forget that the flawed science of chemotheraphy has also failed us.

It’s mostly disinformation. To understand what disinformation and how it works try researching Common Purpose on the interwebs.

See?

Your drowning in bullshit about giant lizards and Bavarian Illuminati and the New World Order. Any closer to the truth? Does it all seem crazy?

Thinking and knowing are actually quite hard.

Good spot, R.P. I was going to write about this, but you beat me to it.

Charlie Brooker has a way with words, and has already got up the noses of the 9/11 ‘truthers’. He hits the nail on the head with this comment:

‘The other day I tuned in to Eerie Investigations, in which the host, a strangely simpering woman with Eerie Investigations printed on her T-shirt, conducted vox-pop interviews with people at an anti-ID card rally. There are a thousand valid reasons for opposing ID cards and questioning everything the government does, but instead both the host and her interviewees spent most of their time talking about how we’re all going to have microchips planted in our heads as part of the New World Order (which, naturally, orchestrated the 9/11 attacks), intermittently breaking from this theme to dismiss the general public as idiotic, docile sheep with such towering self-assurance it made you actively wonder whether labouring under a fascist police state in which government computers monitored your dreams and doled out electric shocks each time you had a subversive thought would be preferable to living in freedom alongside these massive wankers.’

Aside from the invective, he has a point to make about the conspiracy cranks, notably the 9/11 denialists who describe the broad mass of the populace as ’sheeple’. It’s more comforting for these kooks to assume that their failure to make any progress despite 7 years of effort has more to do with the innate stupidity of the vast majority of the human race (but not them, naturally). Otherwise they might have to ask whether their failure is more to do with anyone having an ounce of common sense rejecting their lies about 9/11, not to mention the sheer flimsiness of their arguments about the September 2001 attacks being an ‘inside job’.

I suspect that, deep down, ‘truthers’ are seriously misanthropic.

Question Everything! Oh, except the conspiracy bullshit. That’s real. Really.

*sigh*

“Conspiracy theorists need to believe their viewpoints are being suppressed, rather than, say, assessed and dismissed as ropey and ludicrous.” – I disagree with Brooker. Firstly, he makes the usual unfounded innuendo that “conspiracy theorists” have some psychological desire to find conspiracies. Secondly and perhaps not too surprising, is his opinion that conspiracy claims should be. prima facie, judged to be “ludicrous”, without any investigation of the evidence. I hope Brooker is never selected for jury service. He may need to be informed that the inchoate offence of conspiracy forms a major part of English criminal law.

Political conspiracies have existed as fact and been exposed throughout history – the Gunpowder plot, Watergate, Iran-Contra. The more recent attempt by Blair and Bush to co-ordinate faked evidence of Iraqi WMDs may, in hindsight, be considered a criminal conspiracy on an international scale.

Unfortunately, “conspiracy” has, somehow, become lumped together with the dubious powers of healing crystals and odd new agey prophecies. There are also clearly a lot of snake oil salespersons making a fast buck off touting dubious products. But we should be cautious about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I couldn’t care less about the Knights Templar etc etc etc but I really do doubt the ability of the MSM to initiate and investigate fully when they seem to have made their minds up already. One could argue that Brooker’s position of pre-determination on the entire gamut of alleged conspiracies is in itself contraknowledge. What research or investgation has he done? Or, as I suspect, is he just trying to look smart and knowing among his Grauniad media mates?

“Your drowning in bullshit about giant lizards and Bavarian Illuminati and the New World Order. Any closer to the truth? Does it all seem crazy?”

Er….not really…..mostly anti globalist stuff…..opposition seems to be politically driven.
The Illuminati/lizard/icke connection is really only used in defense of Common Purpose by discrediting their opposition by association.

Maybe Icke is a servant of the global masters???????

http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com/

My favourite Edge Media moment is David Shayler’s announcement of the current identity of the Devil: a middle-aged professional paranoiac from Totnes called Ian Crane, who has helpfully posted the footage on Youtube.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=orfSNlbeJ4M

Shayler spent a lot of time in Totnes a couple of years ago shortly before delaring in Glastonbury that he is the Messiah. He was the star of the show at several twoofer events here and elsewhere, organised by Crane. It seems there has been a parting of the ways.

I once saw Shayler peering into a Totnes butcher’s shop window. Who knows what signs and wonders were vouchsafed to him among the sausages? Lest I be accused of mocking the afflicted, I’ll just point out that Crane and the rest of them follow essentially the same procedure for discovering the ‘hidden knowledge’ they then package and sell to the gullible/stupid. Find some juicy-sounding factoids, fancifully string them together, and artfully arrange them in the window of the nutbar emporium.

visit free your mind for more info
http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com/

I think Youtube has become a favorite place for Truthers to spread their innane propaganda- I particulalry like the Truther youtube posters who delete all comments from people who are critical of the Truther theories- This proves how Truthers cannot debate the issue. Since they reject facts, they have nothing to support their theories. I like the one how they explain away the lack of whistleblowers or leaks from the teams of people who they claim planted explosive in the WTC, by saying those people were probrolly shot. Since they have zero proof these people ever existed, they certianly can’t prove these phantoms were shot! Truthers twist it around and say the burden is on the critics to prove they didn’t exist. Truthers disgust me, but on some levels they amuse me, in that it’s fascinating to watch people abandon logic when they try to defend a position, and just make things up as they go along.

This channel could be potentially rather dangerous.
There seems to be a fair amount of interesting content, but you’d better have the old ‘BS detector’ switched on to filter out the rubbish.
Ironic though, that its aired over Rupert Murdoch’s network….The acclaimed trumpeter of the neocon NWO and all that …..So much for supressed knowledge.

The alternative is listen to the Jew media spread their lies about 9/11, and deny Jew involvement in the coverup. No thanks.
I prefer sites where people are not afraid to reveal the politically incorrect TRUTH about who was behind the attacks in JEW York, Washington and PA on September 11

Brooker’s article is spot on.

If any of the new wave of conspiracy theorists were correct in their arrogant assumption that we are all brainwashed by a higher power, one of two things would have happened –

1. They would all be arrested, imprisoned or shot.
2. The NWO would have stopped all media coverage of them.

Given that youtube and the TV networks are supposed to be run by the Illuminati, these media outlets appear incredibly friendly towards critics of their organisation. Youtube features literally thousands of videos sceaming ‘911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!’

Of course, the conspiracy theorists will turn around and say ‘but that’s what THEY want you to think’, which is a get out clause for everything. They are paranoid, obsessive, arrogant and boring.

i prefer to do my own thinking and checking of facts ,i have a brain and i use it(unlike a lot of people it seems who have left a comment here) i listen to both sides of an argument, i check my facts and come to an informed conclussion. you will notice in the various media how so called conspiracy theorists are constantly being attached to the elvis is alive and the obama is a lizard brigade ,so called journalists who have no interest in the truth trying to ridicule and attack the people who only want the truth to be told, this is the most common method used by the media(we cant argue the true facts because they might just gave a better more acurate argument so instead we try to discredit them as fools who believe elvis is still alive)and sadly some people are taken in by not thinking for them selves. a story came out of the us government giving syphilis to people and leaving them untreted and they died(they wanted to see the effects the disease would have if left untreated) this was proven true, as of this date swine flu has killed only 400 worldwide(yet the us government is talking about forced vaccination against this pandemic and trying to inject us with untested and out of date drugs(by the way they gave the drug companies immunity in case of deaths from the drug or serious side effects, so no case can be brought against them should people die from the vaccine)worldwide the regular flu kills around 100000 a year and no one is forced to take a vaccine ,swine flu has killed only 400 and apparently we have a pandemic. all the people who saw jfk shot by the grassy knoll were either called liars they had mental problems or were completly ommited from the warren report(because their evidence was not what the warren commision and the government wanted people to hear,they wanted 1 shooter lee harvey oswald) 3 dallas police men witnessed the finding of the rifle he was said to have used and made reports of a different rifle being found(not the oswald rifle)witness statements put oswald no where near the sixth floor between 12.00 midday and 12.30 the time of the shooting ,but these people were either ommited from the warren commision or their statments were changed to alter the time scale(in order to make it look as tho oswald had the time he needed to do the shooting)all facts and can be checked and proven to be true if people care to look. any proper(so called conspiracy theorist) will have provable facts to back up there arguments and if they dont they wont speculate on them.go and check things out about jfk and 9/11 etc and use your mind and decide for your self.and no i dont believe elvis is alive and that obama is a lizard,the truth is out there if we care to look. to sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of man(ella wheeler wilcox). and finally osama bin laden the man they say was behind 9/11 the most wanted man in the world and number 1 on the fbi most wanted list,no where on the fbi most wanted does it say he is wanted for any crime relating to 9/11 and when questioned on this they said its because there is no credible evidence against him. check it out its true.open your minds and think for yourself unlike some of the people above .

I would like for Brooker and the other side of the 9/11 to put they evidence forward with the Governments putting all they information forward too. If the Governments and Medias have got nothing to hide from all sides then put it on the table. Then people like my self can look at the information and decide. Instead of having a media that puts forward a question some form of explanation and answer.

I was never taught that way, but I was taught to look at the problem or if one think something seems out of place then look at a piece of information no matter how absurd it may be. It doesn’t matter as long it is the truth.

I admit I am reading on issues which mainstream does try to avoid as I have been in the mainstream myself but not on high level but there is some forms of cover up that does go on, as there is battle to get the truth out. There is this viewpoint that some people think because they are on television or on the big screen they are gods.

To be honest we human beings are no more than beings that is using tools that is at ones disposal that are trying to come to interpretation of what in front of them and depending on people intelligence on many levels with EQ and IQ tags to one life. We use from the programming from birth not many levels not just political to make our decisions on issues. Then asked yourself this question as many people who don’t just take authority point view as god, as that would be retarded and moronic. Also at the same time when so call authority figures do get it right we must be humble and acknowledge that.

At the same time put the name calling of the “Sheep” and “Conspiracy Theorist” and “Tin Foil Hat wearers” reside to the grave while trying to evolve the human race conscience not hamper it through name calling and dismissals of information.

Also the people who have been calling people who do look at information to question have a right to furious for decades so call normal people have been calling group of people that question the government on certain issues conspiracy theorist who have information and information to back up they claims. as crack pots. Once you have one bit of information that shows the truth, doesn’t that then turn theory into possibility which closer to fact and away from theory.

Too many people are trying to keep they bubble world and not wanting to question representation of the true government, as the true government is the people. Who said people in Parliament and the White House are gods? and the same goes for the media. No being on this planet is god in the sense of being above anyone, it is illusion of one perception who is better than another human being.

So as presidents, prime ministers, so call Bilderberg group name after the place where they first met, Monsanto, FDA, WHO and others are no more than people in buildings with monopoly money (a tool). Then the main point is this, if people suspect or have probable cause and find information to bring to light no matter who it is, why not let the information come the forefront instead of hiding like the representational government of the people is doing. If the claims of the truth movement and all that has gone on is not true? Then why not step forward and prove it is a fraud. Unless the truth movement is right with the information they have got and the families of 9/11 through buildingwhat.org are also calling for justice.

I am not a 9/11 truther but more than anything, people in order to make up they own conclusion no matter how upsetting it is needs to be shared, instead of hiding the information like with CCTV footage. When you hide something, in my books and many other people I have met and emailed think the same as what I am about to type. When you hide something normally you are lying to the being in front you when there information that contradicts, then you must show what you hiding to clear you conscience. Unless people love laying with lies and deceptions.

I am not one of those, all I want is the truth from any side of the argument and not to be played like a fool.

And any comments that I find are stupid I will not reply. Thank you.

It’s mostly disinformation. To understand what disinformation and how it works try researching Common Purpose on the interwebs.

See?

Your drowning in bullshit about giant lizards and Bavarian Illuminati and the New World Order. Any closer to the truth? Does it all seem crazy?

Thinking and knowing are actually quite hard.

Good spot, R.P. I was going to write about this, but you beat me to it.

Charlie Brooker has a way with words, and has already got up the noses of the 9/11 ‘truthers’. He hits the nail on the head with this comment:

‘The other day I tuned in to Eerie Investigations, in which the host, a strangely simpering woman with Eerie Investigations printed on her T-shirt, conducted vox-pop interviews with people at an anti-ID card rally. There are a thousand valid reasons for opposing ID cards and questioning everything the government does, but instead both the host and her interviewees spent most of their time talking about how we’re all going to have microchips planted in our heads as part of the New World Order (which, naturally, orchestrated the 9/11 attacks), intermittently breaking from this theme to dismiss the general public as idiotic, docile sheep with such towering self-assurance it made you actively wonder whether labouring under a fascist police state in which government computers monitored your dreams and doled out electric shocks each time you had a subversive thought would be preferable to living in freedom alongside these massive wankers.’

Aside from the invective, he has a point to make about the conspiracy cranks, notably the 9/11 denialists who describe the broad mass of the populace as ’sheeple’. It’s more comforting for these kooks to assume that their failure to make any progress despite 7 years of effort has more to do with the innate stupidity of the vast majority of the human race (but not them, naturally). Otherwise they might have to ask whether their failure is more to do with anyone having an ounce of common sense rejecting their lies about 9/11, not to mention the sheer flimsiness of their arguments about the September 2001 attacks being an ‘inside job’.

I suspect that, deep down, ‘truthers’ are seriously misanthropic.

Question Everything! Oh, except the conspiracy bullshit. That’s real. Really.

*sigh*

“Conspiracy theorists need to believe their viewpoints are being suppressed, rather than, say, assessed and dismissed as ropey and ludicrous.” – I disagree with Brooker. Firstly, he makes the usual unfounded innuendo that “conspiracy theorists” have some psychological desire to find conspiracies. Secondly and perhaps not too surprising, is his opinion that conspiracy claims should be. prima facie, judged to be “ludicrous”, without any investigation of the evidence. I hope Brooker is never selected for jury service. He may need to be informed that the inchoate offence of conspiracy forms a major part of English criminal law.

Political conspiracies have existed as fact and been exposed throughout history – the Gunpowder plot, Watergate, Iran-Contra. The more recent attempt by Blair and Bush to co-ordinate faked evidence of Iraqi WMDs may, in hindsight, be considered a criminal conspiracy on an international scale.

Unfortunately, “conspiracy” has, somehow, become lumped together with the dubious powers of healing crystals and odd new agey prophecies. There are also clearly a lot of snake oil salespersons making a fast buck off touting dubious products. But we should be cautious about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I couldn’t care less about the Knights Templar etc etc etc but I really do doubt the ability of the MSM to initiate and investigate fully when they seem to have made their minds up already. One could argue that Brooker’s position of pre-determination on the entire gamut of alleged conspiracies is in itself contraknowledge. What research or investgation has he done? Or, as I suspect, is he just trying to look smart and knowing among his Grauniad media mates?

“Your drowning in bullshit about giant lizards and Bavarian Illuminati and the New World Order. Any closer to the truth? Does it all seem crazy?”

Er….not really…..mostly anti globalist stuff…..opposition seems to be politically driven.
The Illuminati/lizard/icke connection is really only used in defense of Common Purpose by discrediting their opposition by association.

Maybe Icke is a servant of the global masters???????

http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com/

My favourite Edge Media moment is David Shayler’s announcement of the current identity of the Devil: a middle-aged professional paranoiac from Totnes called Ian Crane, who has helpfully posted the footage on Youtube.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=orfSNlbeJ4M

Shayler spent a lot of time in Totnes a couple of years ago shortly before delaring in Glastonbury that he is the Messiah. He was the star of the show at several twoofer events here and elsewhere, organised by Crane. It seems there has been a parting of the ways.

I once saw Shayler peering into a Totnes butcher’s shop window. Who knows what signs and wonders were vouchsafed to him among the sausages? Lest I be accused of mocking the afflicted, I’ll just point out that Crane and the rest of them follow essentially the same procedure for discovering the ‘hidden knowledge’ they then package and sell to the gullible/stupid. Find some juicy-sounding factoids, fancifully string them together, and artfully arrange them in the window of the nutbar emporium.

visit free your mind for more info
http://freeyourmind-hiddentruths.blogspot.com/

I think Youtube has become a favorite place for Truthers to spread their innane propaganda- I particulalry like the Truther youtube posters who delete all comments from people who are critical of the Truther theories- This proves how Truthers cannot debate the issue. Since they reject facts, they have nothing to support their theories. I like the one how they explain away the lack of whistleblowers or leaks from the teams of people who they claim planted explosive in the WTC, by saying those people were probrolly shot. Since they have zero proof these people ever existed, they certianly can’t prove these phantoms were shot! Truthers twist it around and say the burden is on the critics to prove they didn’t exist. Truthers disgust me, but on some levels they amuse me, in that it’s fascinating to watch people abandon logic when they try to defend a position, and just make things up as they go along.

This channel could be potentially rather dangerous.
There seems to be a fair amount of interesting content, but you’d better have the old ‘BS detector’ switched on to filter out the rubbish.
Ironic though, that its aired over Rupert Murdoch’s network….The acclaimed trumpeter of the neocon NWO and all that …..So much for supressed knowledge.

The alternative is listen to the Jew media spread their lies about 9/11, and deny Jew involvement in the coverup. No thanks.
I prefer sites where people are not afraid to reveal the politically incorrect TRUTH about who was behind the attacks in JEW York, Washington and PA on September 11

Brooker’s article is spot on.

If any of the new wave of conspiracy theorists were correct in their arrogant assumption that we are all brainwashed by a higher power, one of two things would have happened –

1. They would all be arrested, imprisoned or shot.
2. The NWO would have stopped all media coverage of them.

Given that youtube and the TV networks are supposed to be run by the Illuminati, these media outlets appear incredibly friendly towards critics of their organisation. Youtube features literally thousands of videos sceaming ‘911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!’

Of course, the conspiracy theorists will turn around and say ‘but that’s what THEY want you to think’, which is a get out clause for everything. They are paranoid, obsessive, arrogant and boring.

i prefer to do my own thinking and checking of facts ,i have a brain and i use it(unlike a lot of people it seems who have left a comment here) i listen to both sides of an argument, i check my facts and come to an informed conclussion. you will notice in the various media how so called conspiracy theorists are constantly being attached to the elvis is alive and the obama is a lizard brigade ,so called journalists who have no interest in the truth trying to ridicule and attack the people who only want the truth to be told, this is the most common method used by the media(we cant argue the true facts because they might just gave a better more acurate argument so instead we try to discredit them as fools who believe elvis is still alive)and sadly some people are taken in by not thinking for them selves. a story came out of the us government giving syphilis to people and leaving them untreted and they died(they wanted to see the effects the disease would have if left untreated) this was proven true, as of this date swine flu has killed only 400 worldwide(yet the us government is talking about forced vaccination against this pandemic and trying to inject us with untested and out of date drugs(by the way they gave the drug companies immunity in case of deaths from the drug or serious side effects, so no case can be brought against them should people die from the vaccine)worldwide the regular flu kills around 100000 a year and no one is forced to take a vaccine ,swine flu has killed only 400 and apparently we have a pandemic. all the people who saw jfk shot by the grassy knoll were either called liars they had mental problems or were completly ommited from the warren report(because their evidence was not what the warren commision and the government wanted people to hear,they wanted 1 shooter lee harvey oswald) 3 dallas police men witnessed the finding of the rifle he was said to have used and made reports of a different rifle being found(not the oswald rifle)witness statements put oswald no where near the sixth floor between 12.00 midday and 12.30 the time of the shooting ,but these people were either ommited from the warren commision or their statments were changed to alter the time scale(in order to make it look as tho oswald had the time he needed to do the shooting)all facts and can be checked and proven to be true if people care to look. any proper(so called conspiracy theorist) will have provable facts to back up there arguments and if they dont they wont speculate on them.go and check things out about jfk and 9/11 etc and use your mind and decide for your self.and no i dont believe elvis is alive and that obama is a lizard,the truth is out there if we care to look. to sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of man(ella wheeler wilcox). and finally osama bin laden the man they say was behind 9/11 the most wanted man in the world and number 1 on the fbi most wanted list,no where on the fbi most wanted does it say he is wanted for any crime relating to 9/11 and when questioned on this they said its because there is no credible evidence against him. check it out its true.open your minds and think for yourself unlike some of the people above .

I would like for Brooker and the other side of the 9/11 to put they evidence forward with the Governments putting all they information forward too. If the Governments and Medias have got nothing to hide from all sides then put it on the table. Then people like my self can look at the information and decide. Instead of having a media that puts forward a question some form of explanation and answer.

I was never taught that way, but I was taught to look at the problem or if one think something seems out of place then look at a piece of information no matter how absurd it may be. It doesn’t matter as long it is the truth.

I admit I am reading on issues which mainstream does try to avoid as I have been in the mainstream myself but not on high level but there is some forms of cover up that does go on, as there is battle to get the truth out. There is this viewpoint that some people think because they are on television or on the big screen they are gods.

To be honest we human beings are no more than beings that is using tools that is at ones disposal that are trying to come to interpretation of what in front of them and depending on people intelligence on many levels with EQ and IQ tags to one life. We use from the programming from birth not many levels not just political to make our decisions on issues. Then asked yourself this question as many people who don’t just take authority point view as god, as that would be retarded and moronic. Also at the same time when so call authority figures do get it right we must be humble and acknowledge that.

At the same time put the name calling of the “Sheep” and “Conspiracy Theorist” and “Tin Foil Hat wearers” reside to the grave while trying to evolve the human race conscience not hamper it through name calling and dismissals of information.

Also the people who have been calling people who do look at information to question have a right to furious for decades so call normal people have been calling group of people that question the government on certain issues conspiracy theorist who have information and information to back up they claims. as crack pots. Once you have one bit of information that shows the truth, doesn’t that then turn theory into possibility which closer to fact and away from theory.

Too many people are trying to keep they bubble world and not wanting to question representation of the true government, as the true government is the people. Who said people in Parliament and the White House are gods? and the same goes for the media. No being on this planet is god in the sense of being above anyone, it is illusion of one perception who is better than another human being.

So as presidents, prime ministers, so call Bilderberg group name after the place where they first met, Monsanto, FDA, WHO and others are no more than people in buildings with monopoly money (a tool). Then the main point is this, if people suspect or have probable cause and find information to bring to light no matter who it is, why not let the information come the forefront instead of hiding like the representational government of the people is doing. If the claims of the truth movement and all that has gone on is not true? Then why not step forward and prove it is a fraud. Unless the truth movement is right with the information they have got and the families of 9/11 through buildingwhat.org are also calling for justice.

I am not a 9/11 truther but more than anything, people in order to make up they own conclusion no matter how upsetting it is needs to be shared, instead of hiding the information like with CCTV footage. When you hide something, in my books and many other people I have met and emailed think the same as what I am about to type. When you hide something normally you are lying to the being in front you when there information that contradicts, then you must show what you hiding to clear you conscience. Unless people love laying with lies and deceptions.

I am not one of those, all I want is the truth from any side of the argument and not to be played like a fool.

And any comments that I find are stupid I will not reply. Thank you.